"Bitter" women

[BasilRathbone]

I have noticed on MN (and in RL) that when women talk openly about their life experiences without attempting to ameliorate the effects of how they have been treated by men, the state, an employer - whoever- they are almost invariably described as "bitter".

This is irrespective of whether they sound bitter or not. They might be speaking quite soberly, factually about the fact that they were the victims of domestic violence, or emotional abuse and they are not trying to make excuses for the perpetrators. Or they might be describing without speculation, the processes they had to go through, to get help for their disabled child. Or they might be describing the inadequate response of an employer, to a case of workplace bullying. Or any bad experience they have ever had, where they have been seriously put upon and another person or a system, treated them badly.

It doesn't matter how rationally and factually they speak about it, the very fact that they speak out without making excuses for the perpetrator or the system, seems to automatically define them as "bitter" in the eyes of many people. When men speak out about their bad or sad experiences, they are not assumed to be eaten up with anger and bitterness, their experience is respected and mostly they meet with sympathy. The only men who are pointed at as "bitter" are fairly extremist loons who come out with stuff like "all women are bitches" and even then, the excuse is made for them that "it's understandable he feels like that, she treated him so badly" etc. etc. Mostly though, even though most women aren't bitter, if they dare to describe in detail the shit that has been thrown at them without making excuses for the shit-throwers, they are assumed to be bitter and twisted and unable to move on and that is their fault, no-one else's.

Am I imagining this?

I was listening to a radio programme the other day about forgiveness and it really irritated me. It was so asinine and kind of lecturing about this thing of having to forgive people otherwise it would eat you up and make you bitter. It just pissed me off so much; one woman rang up and made the point that women are expected to forgive far more than men are otherwise they are considered bitter and she was immediately cut off as soon as she started to talk about that. It was really very irksome listening to it.

That sort of sanctimonious attitude is infuriating - 'Oh, you must forgive'. Why must you? It's a personal choice, not an obligation.

Some acts shouldn't be forgiven surely? That doesn't mean you can't move on from them. In fact it is important in some situations not to forgive, otherwise you may keep accepting the same treatment.

Why is forgiveness linked to "moving on"?

That is a very good question Scallops.

There does seem to be this idea pushed by the psychobabble community, that you need to forgive someone in order to "move on" to have "closure".

So victims of wrong-doing are given the message, that unless they forgive someone who has wronged them, they will carry that lack of forgiveness around for the rest of their life and it will eat into them like a cancer, causing them to be bitter and harm them - that forgiveness is for their benefit rather than that of the person who wronged them.

I think this is a hangover from the Judeo-Christian ethic that has historically informed Western thinking and I had always bought into that narrative until I read Toxic Parents by Susan Forward, where she points out that unless the person who you want to forgive acknowledges that they have wronged you, your forgiveness is pretty meaningless. It was the first time I'd read "permission" not to forgive someone and that if you chose not to, that's a valid choice and it won't do you any harm. She points out that spending your life desperately trying to forgive someone who is continuing to wrong you by refusing to admit that s/he has actually done so, is a bizarre and pointless activity likely to cause as much damage as the claim that not forgiving someone is supposed to do, and that to give up this fruitless activity, is actually very liberating and enables you to let go of what's bugging you and move on.

That is a point of view I hardly ever hear articulated.

Basil, thank you for that.

Agree with so much that has been said - although I haven't thought it through in gendered terms, just noticed at as a universal.

But here's something I've found disturbing on MN.

When someone is talking about psychologically hurtful stuff during birth (being disbelieved, errors in their notes, their pain being belittled by HCPs who're actually covering for lack of resources), there's always at least one post saying, "You shouldn't be thinking about those things. Just enjoy your baby."

It seems to be code for "Shut up and don't even acknowledge that people hurt you. DON'T TALK ABOUT IT."

Surely the first step in dealing with trauma is to acknowledge it? I don't mean looking for retribution against the HCPs, or expecting them to always be psychic or perfect. Just, to acknowledge the reality of what happened, in order to move on. To be bullied into denying it seems an abuse in itself.

I've never given birth so have no dog in this fight, but it's got to the point where my hackles rise every time I see, "Just enjoy your baby".

No, you are not imagining it.

I agree with you about forgiveness too.

As a Catholic by birth and education I think forgiveness and its necessary companion contrition are very powerful, but I don't agree that there is an imperative to forgive every wrong, regardless of apology.

I think it is the presumption that women who have been wronged are "bitter" rather than justifiably pissed off that is the root of the common belief that thousands of irrationsl, bitter, vengeful women are preventing their children seeing their fathers.

I don't understand why it is so easy for so many to accept that a significant number of women are spiteful and bitter by their very nature. There's no need to wonder WHY so many women might be so bitter, because women are apparently just like that.

I think that sometimes bitterness gets confused with anger. It is not the same. It is possible to be extremely angry without being bitter.

Yes.

Generally when women express it.

When men express anger, it's righteous anger and it's seen as a positive or at least understandable.

When women express it, it's seen as hysterical or bitter.

Very rarely is a woman's anger accorded the same validity as that of a man.

I get called 'bitter' sometimes when I question the romantic-relationships-are-compulsory culture or point out that monogamy/heterosexuality don't work for everyone. But to some people, showing the tiniest indication of being a bit of a feminist is so frightening and threatening that they have to throw any accusation they can in your direction to make you shut up.

When men express anger, it's righteous anger and it's seen as a positive or at least understandable.

When women express it, it's seen as hysterical or bitter.

God yes, this happens all the time. Really pisses me off. As does men telling me to calm down, when I am not raising my voice, not being shouty or aggressive but firmly, clearly and decisively disagreeing with them in a rational way. Then they always say 'calm down, stop being hysterical' to avoid responding to a point - this tends to happen when they have run out of valid points in their argument. I point out I am not being hysterical, and because I am not and they can't say anything to this, they then usually flounce off. Very frustrating. Doesn't ever happen with women though. And the discussions I am talking about are not about feminism.

This is not imagined. I have been accused of being bitter on a few occasions when soberly relaying my life experiences, by both men amd women. Maybe i am a little more honest about my experiences and feelings in terms of being self aware than is comfortable for the person i am in conversation with.

It seems stock response for those with wider or deeper issues, perhaps they choose to avoid challenging them, opposite to myself. I do not rant or lecture just talk in a sober fashion.

I find it needless and ignorant.

Sorry i haven't explained my point very well :)