Working mum. SAHDad. Support?

[BlingLoving]

Not sure where to put this, but figure that ultimately, a working mum and a stay at home dad is a feminist issue, or perhaps the result of feminism? Anyway, I realise that while DH is currently not getting much support, there are support options out there ? 1000s of blogs written by men in his situation; every SAHM we know taking him under their wing; other men who he will eventually get to recognise and know while he?s out and about with DS. But I don?t know any other working mums with SAHDs. Not one. And so I don?t know who to talk to.

So? does anyone a) know of any resources for me or b) want to join me in a general chat about what it feels like and what works and doesn?t work?

Sheesh Porto. I am not worrying about what dh is doing. Nor do I want a medal for going to work. I wanted to speak to people who know how I feel. I feel sympathetic to Sahm who feel the relentlessness of things, even if I don't experience it. And I feel sympathy for working mums who feel torn, even if I don't experience it.

And yes, feminism wil be working properly when it's not even an issue. But that wasn't what I was addressing here. Even when we get to the point where any and all permutations of family life are accepted, each group will still look for support from others in the same position. Because we all have issues or concerns or things we find difficult that we feel only others in the same position really understand.

Being in the same position I feel like I should know how you feel OP. Yet I'm not sure I'm getting it. Is it that you kind of want to have your cake and eat it? (not meaning that in a critical way). Or not that at all?

Going back to your original post who wanted a general chat about how it feels and what works and doesn't work.

FWIW, in our house what has worked is that there is not the total role reversal that sometimes happens. I still do most of the shopping and the cooking, buy the children's clothes, get their hair cut, etc. I also make sure I'm available to go into the school when necessary and I take DD to the local toddler group when I can.

Perhaps that makes me a control freak, but actually I think it's both of us focusing on our strengths beyond the necessity of the working hours arrangements. DH has plenty of "man" work to do like renovating our house in his "spare" time!

I think that means that I myself want to have my cake and eat it!

I don't know what having my cake and eating it means in this context?

I don't want anything except to get the kind of insight and understanding yoh just provided Gaelic. In our case, I also still do shopping and cooking and it's clear that both other working mothers and men think I am crazy. But I feel many that the sahp is not responsible for everything so see no reason why I should expect to come home and sit on my butt. It's good to know I'm not the only one thinking like that.

Dh does lots of domestic chores and other 'man' chores so we both feel we are getting a good deal. Not everyone agrees. So I am pleased to see you and your dh seem to think similarly to us.

I mean kind of wanting to be both SAHM and WOHM mum at the same time - that's how I feel, I think. Probably not the right analogy!

That's really interesting that you arrange things in a similar way. And yes many people seem to think I'm crazy. Many a Mumsnetter has said I need to teach him to cook and tell him I expect him to do the food shopping.

My view is that he is NOT my slave. We are merely dividing up the family tasks in the most practical way possible for us. Just because I work out of the home does not mean I have abdicated a single shred of responsibility for looking after my family. And just because he is a SAHD does not mean that he has suddenly become capable of food shopping on a budget!

I think, like you said earlier, that our kind of arrangement embraces equality in the truest sense of the word. Where it can break down a little (and does in my DH's head) is in the immature views of other people, although of course they shouldn't matter.

In fact thinking about it, the first thing anyone ever comes up with when I say DH is a SAHD is how nice it must be having tea on the table when I get in. As if! I just don't bother saying anything any more, I just smile sweetly and move the conversation on. But actually it really really winds me up. People do genuinely think that DH is my skivvy. Do SAHMs really have tea on the table for their DH when he gets home? I know I wouldn't!

I do now totally understand - I think - what you're getting at with this thread and re-reading your OP it's very plain. I got distracted before by the earlier replies and because I genuinely do think SAHDs have a rough deal in terms of the perceptions of other people.

I still don't understand what the problem is. To me, you should both get equal downtime. You can divide tasks how you like but you both get equal time off. You are both doing a job.

Why does there have to be a problem? Why is it not OK for the OP to want to chat things over with others in a similar position?

Time off? What's that (both me and my DH ask!)?

But actually the problem for a WOHM in this position (for me at least) is that people assume you have things easy. That you just swan to work and home again and don't have to worry about the children or the house because your DH takes care of that. Which is kind of true in a purely practical sense but totally ignores the fact that you are still a mother 24/7.

I think in our house it would be easier to get equal time off if we both worked out of the home. As it is I feel like I get time off at work so DH deserves more of it when I'm home. The time off I really really value is when DH gets up with the children on a weekend to allow me some extra sleep after I've been up late all week Mumsnetting working.

I'm a sahm. I have been at toddler groups - several times - when a dad has brought his kids. They are not welcomed by the mums as much as a new woman would be. Women stop talking when they come near, because the women are chatting about sex, or breast feeding, or something else they feel awkward discussing in fromnt of a man they don't know.

As women who welcome more gender equality in parenting and childcare, I think we should welcome these men. They are doing something society still sometimes raises an eyebrow at. Being a stay at home parent of either gender can be isolating and hard. So if I see someone new, I make a point of welcoming them, chatting to them, being friendly. They are men, not aliens - but sometimes get treated that way.

Gaelic, that's it exactly. My flex working request is the only one ever rejected at my office. And I know it's because they feel they can get away with it because dh is home so I apparently don't need the flexibility.

I assume all working people who have a SAHP be they men or women have it easier than me because they do lol. I'm not walking around life showing that I think that. But when I have to stay v late at work and I'm calling dh and negotiating which one of us has to be back on time for the childcare or should we call in an emergency favour (we have no family nearby so it's a big ask) etc etc and ALL my colleagues, every single one, has a SAHP and they are not running around like blue arsed flies trying to sort it out, yup, I assume it is easier for them.

Whether it is or isn't I wouldn't know but you cannot blame WOHP for thinking that it is!

Fox, I think that is easier for me. Not denying it. That's why I am looking for people like me to talk to - people in the same boat can understand my issues without getting bogged down by thinking how hard their own lives are.

Yes I know what you mean. I promise in real life I don't portray that attitude so you could talk to me .

But Foxinsocks, while I agree that we have a little easier that's only in terms of getting to and from childcare - I can't see that there's any other difference really. When I went back to work this time, DC2 was 7 months old. I was out at work for 10 hours a day, still breastfeeding a 7 month morning, evening and all night long so I don't think I really had it significantly easier! Until a couple of months ago I was doing a demanding full time job on about 3 hours sleep a night. I happened to leave her with DH rather than dropping her at nursery or a childminder on my way to work. So what?

For me it's two things. One, the peace of mind that you're leaving them with someone (your partner) who you know loves them like you do and will care for them in that way (which was a big concern of mine when they were babies and I was leaving mine in a nursery) and the second thing is the absolute hassle it is having 2 working parents. So the organisation, the fact that weekends are a 48 hour rush to get all the washing done, make sure everything is clean and the kids are sorted, having to do all the chores on the weekend like children shoe shopping, clothes shopping and any visit by plumbers/electricians/important doctors/dentist visits by the dcs require one of us to take time off work as they have to be done during the week when both of us are at work. The convenience and the peace of mind you have when a dc is sick and you know a SAHP can take care of them and will know when to call a doctor rather than making a call at some ungodly hour as to whether one of us needs to stay or we can go or not etc etc etc

I can see that yes. In my case there isn't too much peace of mind as DH isn't in great health and I worry constantly if he and the children are OK. And all the chores do tend to get done at the weekend, including the main food shopping, clothes shopping, haircuts, cleaning, washing etc. DH, bless him, is brilliant with the children but finds it very hard to combine childcare with housework. We share it equally at the weekend.

Anyhow, competitive hardness is what Blink is here to avoid . All I'm saying is that lots of assumptions are made about a working mum with a SAHD. Just as I probably make assumptions about how nice it must be to return home to a house that hasn't been the subject of mess-making all day, the children getting a cooked lunch at nursery, art and craft duties are done by the nursery staff, not having to heat the house in the day so cheaper bills, etc. etc. All probably highly inaccurate.

Yes I agree. People's lives are never simple are they.

I do want to point out that I only ever have these types of discussions on mumsnet. In real life I have all sorts of friends (single mums, divorced mums, SAHM, working mums) and this type of topic never comes up!

When I was on maternity leave I became friends with a SAHD. He was learning to be an electrician and came in very handy . He was unbelievably messy and untidy (which I always found quite comforting as I'm not particularly tidy either) though I suspect his working wife was none too pleased when she came home!

They had some dad's toddlers groups here. Not sure how well attended they were.

Anyway, will get off here now! Sorry wasn't meaning to distract the thread!

Fox - it's okay, I understand your point and actually, find it all quite interesting, if though as Gaelic points out, I wasn't coming on for competitive "how hard is my life".

I think the point is that no matter what your circumstances are, there's challenges. You're absolutely right about the joy of not having to worry about gettring home if the train is late or a crisis comes at work and similarly, it's lovely knowing that if DS is sick, DH can take him to the doctor (as he did last week) without me having to a) agonise from a distance and b) rush home from work to do it.

On the downside, unlike mothers everywhere, working or SAHM, I have very little say over his day to day activities and food. Which is fine, but it's an adjustment. I also have to deal with DH's exhaustion/resentment on weekends. By the weekend, he needs a break as badly as I do. Intellectually, both of us get that we're both working hard but like SAHPs everywhere, by Saturday morning he has had it up to the neck with DS and just wants a break and is pissed off if I don't see that instantly (he's such a sweetheart he gets over it pretty quick, but still). He also gets frustrated because he has high standards and he feels guiltly if I'm doing washing on the weekend, even though I know, because I've been there, that getting more than a load or two done a week is bloody hard. And the (unnecessary) guilt makes him irritable and unpleasant with me.

And I'm knackered. I get up early to shower so that when DS wakes up I can spend some time with him and let DH sleep a little later. At work, everyone thinks I'm crazy and that me and DH should just get up at the same time and he can look after DS while I get ready for work. But I want to see DS. Plus, it might not be fun, but while I'm commuting, or eating lunch, or having coffee with a colleague I'm NOT working. But DH is working from the moment I leave the house. So the downside I am absolutely shattered. So is he. We've both been going to bed earlier than we ever have in our lives. It's the only way to stay on top of it. Currently, a movie at home after supper takes two nights to watch as one of us inevitably falls asleep about half way. It would be funny if it wasn't so exhausting!

Incidentally, one of my frustrations is that I think working fathers with stay at home wives, should do more of the morning/evening efforts than most seem to. Or perhaps that's just where I work. But most of the men I know think they're doing really well if they get home in time for a story. It doesn't even occur to them to take on some of the morning responsibility, or to put any effort into preparing or planning meals. It's just not on their agenda. And that, for me, IS a feminist issue. I don't understand why SAHP are so often left to just handle everything. When you're both working, most couples have at least some seperation of chores that they each. But it's like a baby comes along and suddenly SAHP is not just looking after the child, but also doing all the washing, cooking, cleaning, shopping, planning etc. I don't get it.

I am full time WOHM, DH is SAHD. This is a fairly new arrangement (last few months, previously we were the other way around). I like lots of things about it - DS and DH have a great time together, we are now very equal parents, I can work without worrying about childcare arrangements. DH is pretty happy being a SAHD.

BUT I do feel very de-motherised (great phrase!). Sometimes I don't feel that I'm as much of a 'real' mother as mothers who work PT or are SAHM, even though I know this isn't really true. And I would like more time to do things around the house, and most of all to spend more time alone with DS. I miss that so much.

In fact, we are looking to change our arrangement in the long run if possible, so that both of us work PT and have equal care of DC and paid work hours. I think, for us, that's the ideal, although it remains to be seen how possible it is.

Blingloving - much of your post resonates with me. My hours are very long so I can't do as much as I'd like to, and DH knows that, but it's still hard for him. I too get up early to shower!

When you say you have little say over his activities/food - do you and DH discuss this? DH does whatever he wants with DS but I will make suggestions and he sometimes incorporates them. I would say this is fairly similar to a childminder type arrangement? Just in this regard I mean! But do say more on this as I think I know what you mean - ultimately it's up to DH.

Are you happy enough with your arrangement for the long term? I am pregnant with DC2 and just can't see this working for me in the long run - I don't feel comfortable with it TBH - not so much DH being a SAHD as me being a really full time WOHM whilst DC are still v small. I just feel I am missing out on so much - this is NOT to judge anyone else who does this, just my own personal feelings about my individual situation.

I've been thinking about this thread a lot in the last couple of days. I really really wish DH worked as well. Not for the money, and definitely not because I resent him being at home - god I know how much hard work that is! But because I want to be able to enjoy my own work without the guilt. And that's not guilt at leaving the children - not any more, I know they're fine and I spend loads of quality time with them. No it's guilt because DH is so damned miserable all the bloody time. I just wish he would man up and accept that he is doing a great job doing what he's doing - far more valuable than anything he did in industry. It's not his fault - he has clinical depression, pretty badly I think - but it really does put a constant dampener on things.

Gaelic - I'm sorry to hear that your DH struggles such a lot. And yes, I agree that it adds massive guilt. DH is okay about doing it, and sees the benefit etc etc, but I don't think he's quite in a place where he's completely happy either. Frankly, I don't blame him as I wouldn't be happy as a SAHP either.

But if he feels like that, it does put a dampener on thiigs and makes it hard to whine about a bad day at work, "well, at least your boss is an adult and doestn' require bum wiping" or whatever. I don't have any suggestions. I'm just bloody grateful that DH has grown to understand and accept his value in our family as a SAHP and that even though I know he will struggle at times, I think overall he sees it as something we have to do as a family.

Currently I'm just struggling massively with not seeing DS. I might post in working parents section. I don't know how people do it. And DS has started waking up at about 3 am and refusing to go back to sleep for at least an hour and DH and I are starting to think there might be an element of him wanting to be with me.

I work - DH stays home

I have never seen it as an issue at all and certainly not a feminist one..

what sort of support do you need?

Aw Bling, how old is your DS? I think they're a lot more resilient than we think you know. They accept things for how they are. The waking up might just be a "phase", nothing more.

I didn't really settle into our arrangements until after I had DD when I'd had a spell on maternity leave. Finally I felt I bonded properly with DS after having returned to work full time when he was 5.5 months old. This time around I went back to work pretty much guilt free, when DD was 7 months, knowing she would be just fine.

And you know, DD is the most sensitive, clingiest mummy's girl you can possibly imagine. If any child was to be badly affected she would be. But she's such a happy little soul and if she's happy, I'm happy. That's why I'm pretty sure your DS is fine too.

Thanks Gaelic. To be honest, I think DS is fine too. He's 8 months and having a great time with Dad and even if he does like a cuddle with me at night, it's not because he's unhappy. On the other hand, I definitely am unhappy with not seeing him. For my own benefit. I like spending time with him and I find it hard when I can't see him for days at a time. Especially on days like today when it's quiet at work so really, I should just go home, but the culture here is that you don't do that so I'm sitting here, on MN, when I could be on my way home in time to bath DS and give him a bottle.