Happy Patriarchymas!

[thunderboltsandlightning]

I know, I know - but this is the feminist section and christmas is about celebrating the birth of the son of god, with women's spirituality and power completely written out of the story. It's the classic patriarchal mindfuck for women. Even Santa's a man, but who does most of the present-buying and wrapping?

Then there's the fact that christmas is all about women doing most of the work, with men enjoying the benefits.

Each year I find it a little more difficult to have to go through it all. Once you've seen what it's about, it gets harder to ignore the brainwashing.

Hope everybody has a happy peaceful time, whatever you are celebrating.

Ahh, sorry thunderbolts - I though you were swearing at me and it confirmed my view of the feminist board as too scary to post on! at self

The book, by the way, is not an academic text (i can reccomend something else if that's hat you'd prefer?) but is structured as a conversation between 2 respected chistian feminist theologians, and is aimed at christians exploring the issue, though is very accessable if you are new to Christian theology (or to feminism, which I was when I read it at 19!)

Messy, yes, the maleness of the language in the bible is explicit and by and about men. That's why Jesus is so interesting - why sometimes it seems like even the gospel writers don't know what to make of him. There was a talmudic saying at the time or shortly after (sorry can't remember the ref but can find it if needed) that 'It is better to bury the Torah in the earth than to teach it to a woman'.

Contrast this with the story of Mary and Martha. Jesus visits these sisters, and Martha is very stressed out with wifework while Mary sits and listens to Jesus' teachings (this is a role men would usually take with an important Rabbi visitor, women would usually be serving food etc). Martha says to Jesus, 'Why are you talking to Mary - tell her to come and help me!' And Jesus says, 'Martha, you are stresed out by so may things. No- Mary has chosen the better way'.

That's the kind of thing I mean - Jesus' appraoch to women and gender issues in the gospel is complex, nuanced, and deserves examiniation. The fact that the church has plenty of episodes of shameful history and that many f these stories have form the very start been problematic to the powerful men involved with Chrstianity does not detract from this.

Mooncup how about the story where Mary visits Elizabeth?

To expand a bit on my earlier comment, ("He" is the default/de facto neuter pronoun in English),

"He" is a very commonly used default pronoun for "people" if the speaker doesn't want to explicity describe them as being male, but the male norm is still usually implied.

I agree, thunderboltsandlightning, that it wasn't women who would have decided that, and I don't like it's almost exclusive use for supposedly neuter or male-and-female things.

When people refer to God with a supposedly neuter version of "she", I get the impression most people just think that it is daft - "political correctness gone mad" etc., because they regard it as so alien to what they have experienced as the norm. It annoys me that "she" is not regarded by the general public as a serious candidate for the neuter pronoun.

Also, let's not forget the neuter pronoun, "it"!

Sorry, that did not mean to sound like I was disagreeing wth you completly mooncup - yes, the women who would have been present have been written out of the story. Very unlikly Mary would have given birth alone, for example - but her female helpers are not mentioned.

but is partly a social thing - our nativity story that we retell in schoo plays and childrens books misses out a big chunk, where Mary chooses to visit Elizabeth alone, and Elizabeth has a prophetic insight into who jesus is, and Mary sings a song where she says she is blessed above all women and all generations will call her blessed. Its in the bible, but our society misses it out even though its bang slap in the middle of the nativity story.

I'd recommend reading Beyond God the Father and also Pure Lust, both by Mary Daly, who like I said created the field of feminist theology. If you want to understand feminist theology properly, you really need to start there.

Her obituary in the National Catholic Record is here, which gives an outline of some of her ideas and philosophy:

ncronline.org/news/women/mary-daly-radical-feminist-theologian-dead-81

I notice that Jesus didn't get in the kitchen and do his fair share. Martha or Mary might have been beaten by the men in the household if the wifework wasn't done. Jesus appears to have very little understanding of women's reality.

I feel wierd calling god it, I use she or he, usually just 'You' in my head if im praying.

God calls herself

"I Am" or "The great I Am" or "I Am Who I Am" in hebrew. (YHWH)

Yes, I will get some of her stuff Thunder - she is Catholic, which is interesting, because I think there are some quite specific challenges to Catholic women that protestants don't face and vice versa, so I will find it interesting.

It says it's Martha's house, I think they did not have husbands / fathers there (they would have been in Marys place if they were there). So I guess they would not have been beaten, though they would have been socially stigmatised. I think Jesus is saying some things are more important, women are alowed to have different priorities to what their culture says - which was very transgressive.

He does cook for others in different stories - not in this one though

If jesus was a feminist he wouldn't have been telling people to worship god his father.

I can't believe we're having this argument here. The starting point of this thread was that patriarchal religious festivals, in this case christmas, are harmful to women.

Look there are always people who want to defend patriarchal institutions - pornography, religion etc. I really don't feel like having to bat this back.

Please could you use feminism as your starting point Abird, not defending christianity and jesus, because that's just a maintenance of the status quo.

And do you know what, in that story, jesus was your typical arrogant man. What he was saying was important, the work that was required to keep the household running wasn't according to him. Maybe martha didn't feel like sitting at the feet of some dull guy pontificating away expecting everybody to fall down at his pearls of wisdom, maybe she had a list of things she needed to do that day.

I'm finding abirds posts fascinating, like many a Mumsnet thread it's taken a turn, but as someone who struggles with the Catholic Church, it's wealth and violent history and has as a result, turned away from my faith (while still believing in I'm not sure what), this thread is enlightening.

MIL is staunchly religious in a ram it down your throat way, (frustrating at time but she is elderly so we all humour her) while at the same time being a strong independent woman and excellent role model, she is full of massive contradictions.

thunder - I am a Christian and I consider myself a feminist. Am I not allowed to be a Christian and a feminist on the feminist boards?

It just found this which helped me make sense of why we are arguing I think - overview of feminist theology

I'd probably put myself in number 2, the author puts Mary Daley under no 3, (and I will read some of her work because I like broadening my perspective) and then under no 4 and 5 I don't think we're really talking about Chrisitianity at all any more. So, I'm guessing from your posts, you'd scrap the whole thing, I think I see immense value in my faith and would like to reform it.

There's not a problem in us disagreeing with each other is there? (genuinly confused)

MJ, thank you for being kind. I find feminism fascinating, I like discussing it, but I have never posted on the feminist boards before because i find them a bit intimidating, so I appreciate your kindness. Its fun to debate and disagree, I like hearing the opinions of others, as long as it's friendly and polite!

I so relate to your struggle MJ. I have always felt there was a kernal of truth in my faith, and found great comfort in scripture, and had religious experiences very real and important to me. But increasingly there wasa lot of stuff about my religion I could not stomach (mainly the homophobia and sexism) and it really tore me up. When I read Beyond Fear and Silence something clicked in me - she somehow uses the beauty of the text in a way which acknowledges the way the women in Mark have been sidelined by the writer, but yet still values it and makes sense of it as scripture. She's the one who poses the question (though she may be quoting, I can't remember) 'How do we recieve a tradition biased against us?' which I found so helpful in my understanding of my faith.

You lot spoil everything

But it's not really feminism is it? I mean saying that jesus was being a feminist in that scenario is just incorrect, he was nothing of the sort - he wasn't centring women's interests, he was placing his pontificating above them.

I don't really see the point of coming on to a thread which is about radical feminist analysis of religion, based on the work of the very first feminist theologian who frankly hasn't been matched by anybody who came after her, to promote a weak form of liberal feminism that doesn't actually have its focus on women but rather on finding a way to rehabilitate christianity and god.

Maybe Thunder Abird is posting on a thread on MN that is accessible to everyone, it's an opinion & she's entitled to join the discussion?

Surely it's better to have to have intelligent debate & discussion rather than none at all? RadFem or not women should be welcoming those who are happy to debate the idea of feminism as so many women today feel it's not a subject that needs debate.

I didn't say that Abird isn't entitled to join the debate, however she's not actually engaging with anything I've posted about here or the topic of the thread. Saying jesus was a feminist isn't a debate. It's more reflexive patriarchal wah-wah.

What is interesting is the idea of patriarchal religious festivals are designed to make women feel worse about ourselves, to remind us of our unimportance in patriarchal culture, except as workers or worshippers, never at the centre, never divine. That's what patriarchal religious myth is designed to do. Are women interested in examining that?

I don't usually post in this section either abird but this thread and some posts on another thread by garlic have been really interesting.

I'm off to bed shortly and I will read your latest link tomorrow.

We have quite a traditional set up in some ways, because I have the more family friendly employer, but DH cooks, cleans, looks after the children as well as me. I think (in our set up) DH has the raw end of the deal because he would love more time with the children but that's on another thread.

It would be something I'd be interested in reading more about. I'm very new to these boards on MN so I'll lurk with interest for now.

Sorry, I thought it was a debating board.

I totally get why it might be annoying to get people on here denying there is a problem, denying feminism is necessary, denying all the inequalities in our society and blaming rape on women's miniskirts. (I follow some of the threads, I have seen the nonsense you get sometimes!). I guess I am probably not as radical in my feminism as many peple who post here, but I am a feminist.

Like any text, interpretation is key, isn't it? So you say the text of the bible is un-salvagable. I say it's full of crap but there is beauty there too. I am tired of seeing it through the lens of male interpretation, but I do still want to interpret and understand it.

It is interesting that being a feminist means many evangelical Christians question whether someone is a Christian. And being a Christian seems to make some feminists question whether someone is a feminist! Seems I and a whole load of other women are a bit stuck really... nobody wants us!

It's funny thunder Christmas didn't / doesn't make me feel bad about myself, the complete opposite in fact, perhaps it's the meditterean family but I love Christmas, I love the presents, the fun, the magic elves, seeing all the DCs happy.

I didn't get a mountain of gifts, but I did get a beautiful text from dss, a big hug and kiss with a thank you from DH, a lot of joy from my childrens faces.

DH put in extra hours to pay for it, I put in "extra hours" to make it. I wrapped - dh supplied the GnTs and nibbles and generally ran around, fetching carrying, finding. Even though this is a more "traditional" set up, it works for us.

Sorry Thunder, xpost.

I thought I was engaging with your topic? I think yes, many church traditions(and our crazy capitalist media-led society in general as well) do make women feel bad about themselves. But I would make a distinction between the traditions of the church and what I see as a centra core of truth in Christianity which no, is not designed to make women feel that.

It's also funny that my mothers parents, whose roles were very traditionally defined - held my grand mother at "the centre", the glue that binds the family together.

Although my grand father worked while gran was "a housewife" in the traditional sense - there is no doubt that her views and her role was "central" and the most important - what she said went.

In our culture the Virgin Mary is very much revered and adored, probably more so that Jesus.