Happy Patriarchymas!

[thunderboltsandlightning]

I know, I know - but this is the feminist section and christmas is about celebrating the birth of the son of god, with women's spirituality and power completely written out of the story. It's the classic patriarchal mindfuck for women. Even Santa's a man, but who does most of the present-buying and wrapping?

Then there's the fact that christmas is all about women doing most of the work, with men enjoying the benefits.

Each year I find it a little more difficult to have to go through it all. Once you've seen what it's about, it gets harder to ignore the brainwashing.

Hope everybody has a happy peaceful time, whatever you are celebrating.

sorry - will go away and not return....

Or Jacqueline - as Monty Python might have said.

OK, so it's a feminist issue. Fine. But the more important question, surely, is can we do about it?

This is the frustrating thing, for me. When someone comes on a discussion like this and says 'well, it isn't like that in my house' or similar, the response is never 'that's great! Do you want to share how you make that work? Maybe we can learn something.' Instead, they get shouted down, accused of having an 'all right jack' attitude, missing the point etc.

It's almost as though you don't really want to find solutions. You just want to be martyrs, carry on doing stuff you don't want to do, for reasons you can't really justify, and moan about it on here. Or complain that men aren't doing things that they (and I) don't think particularly need to be done anyway.

I guess I'm a practical type, I'd rather think about how I can fix and improve things, rather than sit around endlessly and unproductively 'analysing' them.

If you are the practical type why are you on mumsnet and not out and about doing practical stuff? There wouldn't be any internet forums (let alone a tiny section on Mumsnet called "feminism") at all if people didn't discuss stuff.

Hey, CrackFox,don't suddenly pop up here and try and defeat us with logic!

But Christmas centres around a virgin birth No need for men at all!!

on the contrary, i think discussion is important - you can't develop an argument/foster a movement/take action that benefits all women if you think it only happens to you, or that it is your fault, or that no one else has ever noticed etc etc etc

back in ye old days this was called consciousness raising. it might not seem like anything is happening, but in the midst of words and shared experiences a movement coheres

Ephiny, but you are missing the point

The most vocal Feminist posters are not the ones in the shitty unequal relationships (or aren't still in one...experience is brilliant at sharpening a viewpoint))

I don't understand why you think that is the case

I must admit that one of my first emotions when reading of yet another woman complaining that things aren't fair and she's exhausted and her man has done nothing is irritation rather than solidarity with the downtrodden.
If you allow people to take advantage, they usually will even if they aren't necessarily doing it on purpose.
The fact that first world women still find it difficult to ask for a fair deal, and to make it happen in their own homes is annoying. I find it spineless, and depressing after all the fighting that went on to get women recognised as having rights in the law.
I was 15 when the sex discrimination act came into being, it was a fantastic feeling to have been part of that step. Yet we still have women complaining about Christmas, just like always. If you don't want to shoulder the burden alone, then make it unthinkable that it should be your problem entirely.
To me it has always been an issue of pointing out inequality and not being complicit in letting it happen, starting with my own life and my children's first.

I think I posted on the wrong thread, it's all becoming a blur.

I'm procrastinating! I will get on with something useful very soon, I promise

But seriously, I do want to discuss stuff. Like why/how so many women seem to have got themselves into this unhappy situation (and how some of us have been lucky enough to avoid the trap), and how they can get out of it. And how much we as feminists collectively can do about it, and how much comes down to the individual woman to make her own choices.

To use an analogy, I've struggled badly with weight and eating problems in the past. And there's a time and a place for sitting around discussing and musing over why we overeat - and this is valuable, because it's so often an emotional thing, and there are lots of traps for the unwary, people talk about an 'obesegenic' society with cheap and readily available fast food, high-calorie snacks, 'hidden' calories etc, and there are class issues too, education and money and time come into it. But none of that 'fixed' my problem. The only thing that could was me, realising that in the end it was my hand picking up the chocolate and putting it in my mouth, and I and only I could prevent myself doing that.

Personal responsibility. Why is it so bad to talk about that?

I can absolutely see how it happens. It exactly defines my life. I have a degree and a good job and hate inequality BUT it seems that everyone around me just goes along with the idea that it is women who do all these things.

My parents are shocked at any mention of Dh doing housework, and MIL once slapped my wrist (literally) because I forgot her wedding anniversary. When I told her that Dh did his side of the family, she didn't say a word to him.

And guess what? I do ALL the stuff for Christmas and all that crap. It doesn't matter whether I enjoy it or want that kind of house/experience, no-one is even thinking that it's their job.

Now I do want all the things like a tidy house etc ( actually struggle to think in a messy environment ) so I do it. I wonder what would happen if I didn't do it though.

So I completely get the pressure on women to do these things. And because we're meant to go along with the myth that it's effortless, it isn't even seen, let alone appreciated and valued.

The time and effort it takes to do these things interferes with the ability to live independent successful lives and build careers. It supports the structure of society and is therefore a huge issue.

Of course personal responsibilty is important

I am personally responsible for my own life

It doesn't mean I cannot examine what is going on around me and not point out the unfairness of it

Is that so bad ?

'It doesn't mean I cannot examine what is going on around me and not point out the unfairness of it'

I think it is necessary to do so, but then the question is how to effect change in the quickest and most effective ways possible?
Waiting for a bloke to realise that sitting on his arse being waited on is not a good lifestyle may take forever. Removing the cushion, sharing all the responsibilities of being a couple or a family or a fellow worker takes more effort but works better in my experience.
Silent sulking and whining and getting huffy is pathetic.

...and perhaps it's just in my nature to also look out for the people who, by dint of upbringing, social situation, circumstances etc etc are not in the best position to look out for themselves ??

just a thought...

No, of course it's not bad. I just think we can do both (personal responsibility and role of wider society), what I've been trying to say all along is that I feel the feminist discourse on this particular issue has become rather skewed towards one of those things, and that it isn't productive.

But I can see that challenging that is going to meet a lot of resistance here. I've certainly had enough of it for one day!

And sometimes, even if you know that there' inequality, it doesn't mean you're able to be the one to bring about change. When women campaigned for the vote, they could campaign all they wanted, but if men didn't change the law, they couldn't vote. I may campaign all I want about not buying all the christmas presents, but if no-one else does it, there will be a lot of disappointed people, and dd will see me being blamed for it and internalize that.

So personal responsibility is part of the solution, but not everyone has the power to make the changes. At some point we need to get those people with the power to see the injustice and want to change it as well.

dust and any relationship thread of that nature has that sort of advice on it, so I don't see your point, tbh

I've read this thread with interest and have discussed several points with my DH. There is always value in discussion but also value in action. By action I mean anything from small changes to your own life up to throwing yourself under the kings horse!

Personally I think the fem boards on MN are good for reading, they make me think and surely that's the point.

Thunder your tone indicates to me that on the subject of our family beliefs you are not particularly open minded or respectful but instead antagonistic and so I'd rather than a lengthy one-sided bun fight please understand I would like to spend my time elsewhere. Rape is a very serious topic which is horrific. I'd suggest reading Matt. 1:17-23. It was not rape. The bible, nor other records, have her actual age. She was however known to be of usual age for marriage which was apparently 14-15 years due to the lower life expectancy at the time.

'dust and any relationship thread of that nature has that sort of advice on it, so I don't see your point, tbh'

My point is so simple, I'm not surprised that you couldn't see it.
Why not do something about it, as an adult independent female? you are not trapped, or owned or a minor. Why not change your situation instead of wailing about how unfair and nasty it all is?
This attitude is why I don't post in relationships BTW. I lack understanding and tolerance.

Going off to cook a Boxing Day dinner for 10, because I want to.
May you all have a happy and contented holiday.

kickass, yes

Sitting at home with your lovely husband who washes the pots and cooks the turkey is great. Simply saying "well I did it, so you can" is not helpful in the slightest. I could do that every single christmas.

it won't change anything for those women who don't have it though

only a societal shift will effect that change...and empowering women to say "actually I don't want to do that anymore" will help with that

along with the message that those who uphold the status quo are skating on thin ice if they want to hold onto their relationships

many, many people need the unfairness pointing out...I was reading a thread only today where the OP said she had been going along with some awful crap from her family and male partners for years without realising quite how badly she was being treated. having it poited out by strangers helper her to make a stand...

that refrain has been repeated all over MN ad infinitum

I doubt you will ever see a thread where somebody comes back to say "thanks for telling me I made my own bed, and thus I should have to lie in it..."

Most biblical scholars think that Mary would have been married around 12. Think modern day Afghanistan if you want to understand the patriarchal culture of that time architien.

Twelve year old girls can't consent to sex or impregnation. Particularly when it's god informing you he's going to do that to them. This is a disgusting scenario that came out of the minds of men who were inculcated into a culture where men could indeed rape very young girls and use religion as a justification. If god did it, why should they worry about getting 12 year old girls pregnant?

Thunder context is very important, girls the world over no doubt at that point in time were married at a very young age. I would like to read the links to "most biblical scholars" that you quote say age 12, perhaps you could PM me at your own convenience. I have for a very long time seen references to 14-15. Again I think that even that age is too young but then the culture of that time needs to be considered. This was the norm for a very long time before Mary was even born as I understand it and the Holy family at the time were not accepted as such by the general population much less held up as "an excuse to rape young girls". These days my faith doesn't even agree to marry folk unless they sit down and agree to contribute to family life equally.
Mary was the start to a change that was (and still is in my opinion) required in the world.
Merry Christmas/ winter festivities (whichever suits you best) to all.