Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

WOMEN! Do not forget to be afraid...

101 replies

SardineQueen · 16/12/2011 15:36

Just in case any females out in London over Christmas were going to make the mistake of relaxing and enjoying themselves, the Met are going to send messages to the mobile phones of people while they are out clubbing, to ensure that they don't forget for even one second that they are prey.

here

This stuff drives me absolutely fucking nuts. They think they're being helpful I guess - but it's counter-productive and pathetic. I understand that men are quite at risk over the party season from mugging and violence - will they be getting any messages to remind them not to let their guard down for a second and that they are fundamentally unsafe? What do you think.

GAH.

OP posts:
whatstheetiquette · 18/12/2011 16:26

I am confusing "your" education programme with the following suggestion actually made by SardineQueen:

SardineQueen Sun 18-Dec-11 15:33:02
I also think that drives to educate children in schools about coercion, consent and so on are a good thing.

In addition, taking precautions lowers the precaution taker's risk, but it means the rapist will just select someone else, because the problem lies with the rapist. I am not saying that victims taking precautions will solve rape. I am saying that taking precautions is a sensible thing for an individual to do, given the society we live in today. Do you not take precautions?

DontCallMeFrothyDragon · 18/12/2011 16:26

TheRealTilly, I'm sorry to hear that. :(

DontCallMeFrothyDragon · 18/12/2011 16:29

Whatstheetiquette, what happens if, god forbid, you can't follow one of your beloved precautions?

What if you lose your purse and have to walk home?

What if you do have one drink too many and get blotto?

Or what happens if you follow all those precautions and still get raped?

WoTmania · 18/12/2011 16:29

I have two problems with these sorts of campaigns. 1) it's putting the responsibility for rape onto women ('what did you expect, goingout on your own drinking a nd dressing like that?') and 2) I think it gives women a false sense of security(If I dress modestly and don't drink and do this and that I won't get raped.)
and the problem with 2) is it brings us back to 1) where women get blamed if they are raped.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 18/12/2011 16:29

You're admitting that it's ok to support 'taking precuations' knowing that a rapist will rape someone else. Shock

You are a disgusting person. I'm sure this post will disappear pronto but I'm still quite happy to say that.

MoreBeta · 18/12/2011 16:36

colditz - in our town we have huge posters on the sides of the buses aimed at men that say pretty much exactly what you said in your post.

"Don't forget, if she is drunk, it is rape. If she is drugged, it is rape. If she is unconscious, it is rape. If she says no, it is rape. Only rapists rape. Don't be a rapist tonight."

I think it does prominently say what the prison sentence is as well. I dont know if other places have tried sending the message in such a blatant high profile public way. I was quite surprised to see it as we are quite a sleepy backward sort of place.

TheRealTillyMinto · 18/12/2011 16:38

she is a very capable women. she has survived it. seeing her tonight.

the idea that you need to do x, y, z to keep safe, is more about making the majority of the population feel safe

you wont get raped, your mother, sister, daughter wont get raped, because they act in a certain way. i wonder if it comes from the same place as honour (as in 'honour' killings), something about women being responsible for more in society than themselves. women are always either innocents or whores.

whatstheetiquette · 18/12/2011 16:40

Well if your post gets deleted, I'm happy to reiterate it for you:

LRDtheFeministDragon Sun 18-Dec-11 16:29:36

You're admitting that it's ok to support 'taking precuations' knowing that a rapist will rape someone else.

You are a disgusting person. I'm sure this post will disappear pronto but I'm still quite happy to say that.

(end of post)

DontCallMeFrothyDragon · 18/12/2011 16:41

What WoTomania said.

Also, and sorry to do a little "whatabouttehmenz" here, don't the rape myths infantalise men, a little? I mean, they can't be trusted not to rape women, so we best do what we can to make sure their animalistic instincts don't take over...

I mean, men can't be trusted where a short skirt is around, can they? Hmm

WoTmania · 18/12/2011 16:42

TheRealTillyMinto - the 'women are guardians of morality' shite. 'Cos men should get to have all the fun and none of the responsibilities in life, oh yes.

MoreBeta - I wish that sort of campaign was more common.

Original poster
SardineQueen · 18/12/2011 16:43

whatstheetiquette do you believe that there are any women in our society who are not only too acutely aware of the crime of rape? Do you think there are any women in the UK who are aware that if they do not follow one of the 1,000,000,000 golden rules of rape avoidance, that they are putting themselves at risk. And that as there are so manyrules, they are basically always going to be doing something "wrong"?

Don't you think it is the case that is anyone needs reminding that they might be a victim of crime, it might be men? That they are at risk of assault, mugging, rape even? Don't you think that in the effort of adhering to the 1,000,000,000 of rape avoidance, some women will forget about much commoner risks eg pickpocketing?

In short. What is the point of telling women something they already know, and are reminded of every time time they switch on the TV? Really, why is it happening? And that other types of victim, and other types of more common crime, do not have this type of constant reminding thing going on?

OP posts:
WoTmania · 18/12/2011 16:44

frothy - I absolutely agree re: infantilising.

whatstheetiquette · 18/12/2011 16:52

SQ -I imagine that the police sent this text out because they get more rape crime reported to them around the Christmas period from people who were out and about and wanted to try and do something to reduce it this Christmas. If this thread is representative of national opinion, I suppose they shouldn't have bothered.

TheRealTillyMinto · 18/12/2011 16:54

the police could have just done the dont be a rapist part of of the message.

DontCallMeFrothyDragon · 18/12/2011 16:55

Why not target the people who are likely to have sex with women who are too drunk to consent? Why not put the posters in men's toilets in pubs, clubs and bars.

Why have the constant reminder of the threat of rape thrown in women's faces?

Original poster
SardineQueen · 18/12/2011 17:13

whatstheetiquette

Don't you think the increase (what sort of increase I don't know) is due to a larger number of people being out? So the texts are irrelevant.

OP posts:
Original poster
SardineQueen · 18/12/2011 17:17

Therealtillyminto I think the message does say something about don't rape anyone.

The whole thing is stupid.

Woman goes out for office party. There are one trillion rules she is supposed to follow. However she wants to let her hair down and have a good time and so does not follow all the rules 100%. Then if anything happens she knows that she has broken the rules and so therefore must carry part of the blame. Anyone who thinks that is not how people feel is ignoring the obvious I think. The media, society, police messages all give women the idea that it is their responsibility to "keep themselves safe".

OP posts:
Original poster
SardineQueen · 18/12/2011 17:25

So you follow the instructions:

You stay in with your partner instead of going out. Statistically this decision puts you more at risk of rape.
You go out, and are careful to get a black cab home rather than walk. Unfortunately, the cab is driven by one John Warboys. Your decision to "follow the rules" has put you in the path of a rapist.
You decide instead, to get a close male friend to walk you home rather than walking home alone. Whoops! Statistically you have just increased your chances of being raped.

Dammit these rules are a bit shit aren't they? you can follow all of them and still get raped. And do you know what, you can completely ignore all of them and the majority of the time you will be absolutely fine. Because most men are not rapists. And if you are unfortunate to come across the path of a rapist, guess what. It won't matter whether you are in a long dress or a short skirt, it won't matter whether you have have one drink or 5 or none, it won't matter whether you know him as a decent sensible chap from your work. None of it will make a difference.

The precautions stuff is magical thinking because the fact that unless you are going to live in a small cave in the middle of nowhere by yourself, it is all down to luck, is just too scary, and would mean women could just go out and get on with their lives without thinking about it and we can't have that now can we.

OP posts:
ChristinedePizaTinsel · 18/12/2011 18:08

whatstheetiquette - my first rapist was a guy I was dating. I fell asleep when he was round at my house (I'd had two whole pints to drink) and I woke up to find him raping me.

He really didn't understand that he'd done anything wrong and he didn't understand why I was upset. He didn't look like a monster, he wasn't a huge scary bloke, he was a fey art student. But he raped me.

And that's why you need to educate men what rape is. For example:

If a woman is asleep, you don't have consent, and that means if you have sex with her, you're a rapist
If a woman is drunk and doesn't give you explicit consent, you're a rapist
If a woman is off her face on drugs and doesn't give you explicit consent, you're a rapist

Most rapists are rapists like my rapist. They don't wait for women in dark alleys, they seem like perfectly nice men and they don't think of themselves as rapists. But they are. And you cannot protect your daughter against men like that.

xyfactor · 19/12/2011 01:51

The blinding fact is that more should be done by the police to lock rapists and violent people up.
The education shouldn't come via text on a boozy night out because nobody gives a fuck when they're hammered.
It should start in schools and every other environment where young boys and girls congregate.
Rape and violence is wrong don't do it!!
If you do it then this is what happens (Insert very tough sentence~punishment here)

anastaisia · 19/12/2011 11:32

does anyone remember that case where a man left a drunk woman at his friend's apartment with the friend - then had second thoughts about it as both of them were drunk, went back and actually prevented a rape from occurring? And then told his friend that if he didn't hand himself in he'd have to go to the police about it.

That's a massive reason to target men in campaigns about preventing rape.

(goes to try and find the articles about it....)

anastaisia · 19/12/2011 11:51

ooh, remembered story slightly wrong, or read a different version of it. Wasn't second thoughts but heard the victim scream.

But gist of post stands: he prevented it and didn't write it off as drunken mistake but insisted on friend taking responsibility despite not being hypothetical scary stranger rapist but a 'normal guy you can be friends with'

story here

TheRuderBarracuda · 19/12/2011 12:22

anastaisa That was really interesting.

The bloke took 3 days to report his friend despite walking in on the friend, completely naked, on top of the woman with his hand over her mouth while she struggled and managed to scream. When he did report him he was given £300 from the public fund as a reward.

Do people who report crimes always get a reward from the public purse then? I wasn't aware of this!

anastaisia · 19/12/2011 13:30

don't know? FWIW - I'm sure I read a slightly different story about it but that was the only one I could find on google, could be worth trying to find more details....

Point I was trying to make was that there are lots of men who aren't rapists, who might be in actually ambiguous situations where they're possibly uncomfortable with a friend's behaviour. Surely campaigns aimed at men are targeting these men just as much as men who commit crimes. Its about a shift in perception

pretendhousewife · 19/12/2011 14:04

xyfactor - I think you are right, the system is absurd with the police trying to do desperate preventative measures with their texting, the hospitals dealing with the emergencies and social services dealing with the fallout.

In the end, when the case goes up before a judge, the law is its usual ass and picks about at pretending to find 'the truth' behind a case, aided by lawyers whose main concern is to get as far from 'the truth' as possible. All at the taxpayers expense, with very little effect on the Ordinary Person On The Street.

Rape and abuse are escalating among young people. Education has to be very direct and very clear and it has to go out to all ages, NOW. This is to save young people - young men and young women. The issue is not 'the definition of rapist in the eyes of the law' this is about protecting young men and women from the internet onslaught that they have had unrestricted access to from the age of around 8.