WOMEN! Do not forget to be afraid...

[SardineQueen]

Just in case any females out in London over Christmas were going to make the mistake of relaxing and enjoying themselves, the Met are going to send messages to the mobile phones of people while they are out clubbing, to ensure that they don't forget for even one second that they are prey.

here

This stuff drives me absolutely fucking nuts. They think they're being helpful I guess - but it's counter-productive and pathetic. I understand that men are quite at risk over the party season from mugging and violence - will they be getting any messages to remind them not to let their guard down for a second and that they are fundamentally unsafe? What do you think.

GAH.

whatstheetiquette why do you think that a message specifically aimed at women and talking only about rape, is preferable to a message to everyone containing general common sense safety pointers?

The campaign to make MEN aware that having sex with someone while drunk is rape is good. It has to be done because, whether we like it or not, the men who are currently around 18-20 are those that came to puberty when the internet was at its most unregulated.

These boys have, from a very young age been watching rape fantasies on screen and will assume that most women are gagging for it. Where girls have the 'revulsion' factor when it comes to watching images, boys have peers, egging them on to watch more.

I think the police are doing the right thing as these young men have had their heads messed with in a way that our generation (and most others) could not imagine. I think there are a lot of screwed up young people out there - young men and women - have a disturbed view of reality and need to be re-educated.

After a decade of free and easy druggy loveliness clubland in the 90s/noughties, this decade have a dangerous combination of drugs and hardcore porn as their inheritance and they need a LOT of guidance to keep sane, let alone to keep safe.

Rapists are either:

1. People who don't care about doing something wrong

2. People who don't actually know right from wrong.

3. People who don't actually know that rape is wrong (according to the posts above, people like this exist)

Either way, a grown man who fits into any of these three categories has a serious problem. I don't care how you badge that problem (since you are arguing over how it is badged, mental health, personality disorder or any other cause), it's totally irrelevant. The problem is present - rapists do have a problem.

Why do you think that's a helpful thing to say?

Are you helping anyone identify and avoid potential rapists? No.
Do your categories accurately describe what rapists themselves think, so they can recognize themselves before they do it? No.

So what use is is?

Before marital rape was criminalized, many people didn't think it was rape. Many people still don't. A lot of rapists justify what they do. How do they fit into your categories?

LRD seems to be channelling my thoughts today...

I feel like I owe her an apology...

whatstheetiquette is societies where some rape is legal (or eg our own a couple of decades ago when it was legal to rape your wife) do you think the men who do it have something badly wrong with them? Or do you think that many people are simply doing something that is legal, their right, and many others do?

I also think that drives to educate children in schools about coercion, consent and so on are a good thing. whatstheetiquette do you think these efforts are a pointless waste of time?

Could you please think 'I don't have a filthy cold' then, frothy?

Whatistheetiquette, I had an interesting conversation with someone recently, in which they claimed I was a "dumb fuck" for classing coercion as rape, cos after all, "she said yes". However, he agreed that rape was "horrendous", but, y'know... coercion, to this individual, did not equate to rape, seeing as "she said yes". The individual in question shut up when I asked if it was still consent if it was a choice between saying yes and being assaulted in another manner.

Therein lies te problem. Until 1990, rape within marriage was not recognised. We still have people who don't believe that rape within marriage is rape. They don't believe that sex under coercion is rape.

The problem rapists have is an inherent lack of respect for a woman's right to consent, or the removal of consent. That is the only thing rapists have in common.

I'll give it a go, LRD...

DH is making me mainline honey and lemon, thanks!

But yes ... the huge problem with these texts is they reinforce to women the idea that they can recognize and prevent rape, that they'll know it when they see it, and it'll happen when they're out having a good time, not when they're at home, and not by another who seems 'nice'.

OK to answer a few points:

LRDtheFeministDragon Sun 18-Dec-11 15:26:48
Why do you think that's a helpful thing to say? & What use is it?

I said it in reponse to your post where you disagreed with my point that rapists have something wrong with them / a problem. I was trying to illustrate to you that in our society today, a man who rapes does have a problem - because you disagreed with this. It was not intended to be of any use/help other than as a response to your post.

SardineQueen Sun 18-Dec-11 15:33:02
I also think that drives to educate children in schools about coercion, consent and so on are a good thing. whatstheetiquette do you think these efforts are a pointless waste of time?

The point is that women are at risk right now, today - until your school education comes into force and has been effective, women are out tonight. I don't disagree with your education suggestion, in fact I think it's a good idea. It won't help for those out tonight, it is a longer term plan. Tonight, it is a good idea for women to go in groups to lower their chances of becoming a victim of rape. Or mugging, if you are not happy about rape being the sole focus.

In response to your other point about times gone by and other societies, I am not referring to any of that. I am referring to here in the UK, present day.

At the end of the day, I would be happy to receive the text that the OP refers to and I would take police advice. I would advise my DD to take precautions against rape and other crime as well. What you do when you are out/what you advise your daughters to do is your call. I also stand by my opinion that simply telling adult men to stop raping would be ineffective. If it's that simple, why hasn't it been done?

So, how do you advise DD to stay safe from being raped from someone she knows (happens in 80% of cases). Should she just become a nun, join an all woman covenant and never trust a man?

See, rape is a weird crime. We get given preventative measures on how to stop something being done to us. The onus should be on the person likely to carry out the crime. Not the person likely to be the victim of the crime. It is victim blaming. Because, you know, despite all the advice, the victim wasn't able to stop it.

Lovely logic...

LRDtheFeministDragon: re your point about stranger rape vs rape by a known individual - I would suggest that women should be warned about both of these thing, rather than warning them about neither.

Shouldn't we be warning men that coercion = rape. Sex with someone who is too drunk to consent = rape. Rather than warning women that something a man may do to you is rape.

Frothy - this thread is about a text telling women to stay safe whilst out. The police are trying to stop this specific thing from happening.

Also - It isn't victim blaming. Taking precautions lowers your risk of becoming a victim - it doesn't eliminate it. You can still be a victim, even taking all precautions possible. None of this implies the victim is at fault.

But is there the slightest point to saying that 'in our society' a rapist has a problem?

Doesn't the fact it's a crime pretty much cover that?

And if the 'something wrong' is otherwise something remarkably difficult to describe or spot, all you are really saying is that criminals are criminals and if you don't want crime to happen, you should really know it's criminals you need to watch out for.

Utterly pointless.

I find this statement quite unpleasant: 'The point is that women are at risk right now, today - until your school education comes into force and has been effective, women are out tonight.'

Yes, god forbid women go out.

Seriously?!

The only thing about the OP that I disagree with is where it is.
This shouldnt have to be in this section.
I can understand why it is though. I have seen these threads go nuts before. You want to see what happens when they are on Netmums

It is bollocks. It perpetuates all the sodding myths about rape. I thought we were making headway sometime in the late 80s but now it just feels like we have whizzed back to the worst part of the 70s.

Enrages me.

The A&E Dept in my local hospital has posters everywhere depicting a group of women in a bar with drinks laughing and looking like they're having a good time.

The caption? NOT "Be careful girls, you get in this state, you get raped" or other such nonsense!

The caption is "JUST BECAUSE WE'RE DRINKING DOESN'T MEAN WE'RE ASKING TO BE RAPED".

Why can't everyone take this stance?!

No you have misunderstood my point. Women are out tonight so it is sensible for them to take precautions. I was not suggesting they shoudn't go out. You must accept that even if your education programme was started in every school next term, it wouldn't be of any use to anyone who is out tonight? Do you have a time machine?

It isn't victim blaming? Seriously?

Did you read about Eamonn Holmes interviewing a rape victim, who he asked "Why didn't you take a taxi?"

What if someone doesn't follow that advice? They get "blamed" by society. "She walked home alone, after dark". "She was kinda asking for it in that skirt". "She was drunk, her inhibitions were lowered..."

I'd rather not look at my outfit when I'm getting ready to go out, and think "If I'm raped, will people say it's my fault for wearing this skirt?"

I'd rather not spend all night on a night out, thinking "I'd better save enough for a taxi, because I can't walk home in case I get raped."

I'd rather not spend a night out thinking "I'd best not get too wasted, in case I can't trust someone not to rape me".

What's my 'education programme' whatme? Or are you talking to someone else?

You seem to have missed the point that decades of telling women to 'take precautions' has not worked.

Do you have any answer to that at all?

"Why didn't you take a taxi? one of my friends was a victim of John Worboys, the prolific taxi driver rapist.

There's women who take all these precautions and still get raped.

There's women who don't follow these precautions, and they still don't get raped.

I used to walk home from work, 11:30pm at night, because I didn't have enough for a taxi. Nothing happened. Sometimes, I'd have a few drinks after work, and I'd walk home, drunk after work. Nothing happened. I sometimes even walked home in a short skirt, drunk, after work. And nothing happened.

That's awful, tilly.