WOMEN! Do not forget to be afraid...

[SardineQueen]

Just in case any females out in London over Christmas were going to make the mistake of relaxing and enjoying themselves, the Met are going to send messages to the mobile phones of people while they are out clubbing, to ensure that they don't forget for even one second that they are prey.

here

This stuff drives me absolutely fucking nuts. They think they're being helpful I guess - but it's counter-productive and pathetic. I understand that men are quite at risk over the party season from mugging and violence - will they be getting any messages to remind them not to let their guard down for a second and that they are fundamentally unsafe? What do you think.

GAH.

Don't be ridiculous. Do you think that criminal psychologists would not have worked it out, if it was so simple as to say to rapists - don't rape anymore. Or to criminals in general - stop committing crimes. Why would we have need for any sort of justice system if it was so simple as saying "don't do that" (actually the law already says that, but anyway...) !! Do you not think that when rapists go to prison, they are told not to rape again? By the sentencing judge/prison rehab? And yet they come out and rape again? It's ludicrous to suggest that saying don't rape women will deter rapists.

Security lights are there so that if burglars come, they get lit up so people are alerted to their presence. They are to make burglars run away (and frankly, burgle someone else). They are nothing like a sign saying please don't burgle. They are a method of protecting youself from burglary. Just like travelling in a group is a method of protecting yourself from rape.

"Do you not think that when rapists go to prison, they are told not to rape again?"

Perhaps you're not aware of this, but hardly any rapists do go to prison. Rape is a crime that can be committed with impunity, pretty much.

I think you're a bit confused, whatme.

Criminal psychologists are struggling on this one, probably largely for the reasons proles mentions. As far as I know - and do correct me if I'm wrong - there has never been a campaign to text me and tell them not to rape. Maybe it would work? We don't know, because we always focus on telling women what not to do.

And it is not working.

Let's be clear here: if telling women to be afraid, to avoid dark roads, to take care when drinking, meant rape no longer happened, I would be 100% behind it.

But it doesn't. That is the point. It's flogging a dead horse, and in the process, making women feel afraid and, yes, making some of them feel if is their fault. Incidentally, this is something psychologists have a strong position on - it is well known that women who've been raped often feel it was their own fault.

So why do the police ignore all of this and carry on targeting women? Because it's easier? I don't know.

(I'm lying, obviously .. I wouldn't be 100% behind it, I'd be dead of shock, but you get the point.)

I pick my teeth at your stupid analogy

I can lock up or hide my emerald collection, but how am i meant to lock up/hide the fact i have a vagina?

as to being in a group, where do i find the entourage to escort me to bed? plenty of dps/dhs rape, you know. it's not all some drooling maniac in a dark alley you know.

if you are serious about rape being an occupational hazard of being female (which let's face it is at the heart of all women it's your duty to be aware and prevent being raped) the issue girl babies with tasers or guns at birth and give us target practice in place of food tech at school

Alternatively, put the responsibility where it belongs - on the police to investigate rape as though it were a real crime that mattered, on the justice system to agressively pursue rapists and give sentences proportional to the crime, on society to stop sending out and reinforcing rape myths

hugz,
an Extremely Angry Woman

What worries me most about this is the potential to plant seeds of an idea to go rape someone in drunk minds. Some guy who has perhaps considered it before, sees a pretty girl he likes the look of, is wondering how to get her into bed then gets a text telling him that if a girl is drunk and/or unconscious she cant consent. Thats a bit dangerous isnt it?

Nah, this would only be a problem if all men were rapists

happily they are not

I don't have such a low opinion of men, jax.

Ooh, my tazers for baby girls idea is catching on.

What'sthe With the burglary analogy is that you are saying it is the owner's responsibility to minimize the chances they are burgled, right? And that the signs, lights etc say "hey burglars! Go burgle someone else, if you try it here you will be caught!"

That only works, however because we know that IF someone tries to burgle your house, and IF that person is caught,

(1) you will feel okay about calling the police, you will expect them to help you
(2) the police will come in a timely manner
(3) the police will believe you when you say you have been burgled, and not ask you "are you sure you didn't give him your stuff and then change your mind? Really? Because you dress like someone who gives to charity. Were you giving mixed signals? I hear you've donated stuff to Oxfam before. Are you sure that really, you didn't want to give your stuff away to this person and now you're calling him a burglar to ruin him?"
(4) Your friends and family and neighbours will commiserate with you, and not say to your face and behind your back "People who say they've been burgled are just attention seeking. The poor burglar was probably confused by the fact that she has a really nice house, and often invites guests in for a meal - which she just GIVES to them. How was he to know that prying open a kitchen window and stealing her TV wasn't okay when she's known to invite friends into her house, and often gives them presents? She's a house-slut, that one. Out to ruin the burglar's reputation."
(5) Because of the police's belief that a crime occurred, and the support of your family, friends and neighbours, IF the burglar is caught, he will probably go to trial. And probably get convicted, because the jury will probably think you didn't mean to give your stuff away. And maybe even get a decent sentence, because people think houses are worth protecting and looking after.

In none of these ways are burglaries similar to rape. Rapists know that they can rape without much chance of being caught, and with an even smaller chance of being convicted.

whatstheetiquette what is "being idealistic" about pointing out that these messages are counterproductive?

And I haven't suggested that instead messages be sent to men saying not to rape anyone. My suggestion - if the police must do something like this - is that they send a general safety message which is applicable to both sexes and a range of situations. It is not just women who are at risk if they get hammered and conk out in the gutter. And rape is not the only crime. I do not understand the focus on women and rape, when men are also victims of crime, and rape is not the only crime that happens. And of course the fact that rape doesn't only happen to women.

it's a load of old nonsense.

I think the idea of sending messages to men saying not to rape anyone, perhaps with a warning that they'll be sent to prison for 8 years average (seem to remember this figure from somewhere) and a gruesome photo of a man in prison screaming in fear, perhaps with his underpants pornographically arranged around his ankles, is as good an idea as posting photographs of women screaming in fear or pornographic pictures of naked women to prevent rape.

Thing is that sounds ridiculous samandi.
Yet your point that these messages being given to women is normal and even helpful.
Just shows how deeply ingrained these things are. It's not ridiculous to suggest that. Why would it be ridiculous?

Lol @ blackcurrants post :-)

and LRD is right, these posters aimed at women don't work.

Applauds blackcurrants. Spot on.

Also this statement that keeps being quoted (saw something on TV last night) that 2/3 of rapes feature alcohol. I don't understand why this is particularly relevant in the context of rape and also why it is always quoted ambiguously - do they mean to say 2/3 of rapists are drunk when they rape? Obviously not because they then go on to warn women about the dangers of drinking.

The "keep your valuables well hidden if you want to avoid burglary" nonsense analogy can only make sense if the advice given to women is to dress up in drag and go out and about pretending to be men, as in "keep the fact you own a vagina well hidden if you want to avoid rape."

Yes I don't understand the 2/3 of rapes involve alcohol thing - and also always wonder whether they mean the assailant or the victim (or both).

I mean if a woman has one glass of wine and then her DH rapes her....Then what? What does it actually mean. The implication is obviously that women should not drink. But that's not a reasonable message is it.

I am staggered that anyone can thing that telling rapists not to rape will be effective. Rapists commit rape because they have something wrong with them/their minds or personalities - will a text fix that? Of course it won't.

TheRuderBarracuda - of course the analogy does not mean keep the fact you have a vagina hidden. It means that rape and burglary are both crimes and we can take precautions to try and minimise our chances of being a victim.

Precaution for burglary: eg lock your door
Precaution for rape: eg travel in a group

You deliberately made the analogy too literal to divert from my point that there are precautions that we can all take to try and minimise our chances of being the victim of a crime. The police are trying to help women take those precautions. I think that many of you will be taking precautions every day to avoid crime - is your broadband connection secured with a passcode or do you just call your connection "dontstealmybroadband" and leave it unsecured? Do you lock your doors at night? Does your phone have a PIN? Do you use a car alarm? Does your school only allow children to be picked up by preauthorised people? Do they lock the playground once all the children are in school?

One of the reasons rapists rape is that they know they can get away with it - society supports them.

If a man rapes a woman, he knows that all the focus will be on her behaviour - was she drunk? what was she wearing? was she sending him the "wrong" signals, etc etc. He can just sit back and wait to get away with it.

Once public campaigns start putting the responsibility with stopping rape where it actually lies - with rapists, it's going to be a lot harder for rapists to rely on flying under the radar, whilst their victim faces all the condemnation.

Men never get told not to rape women, on the other hand women are constantly being harangued about changing our behaviour to avoid rape. It's the wrong way round.

-Socitey does not support rapists. Society has problems catching rapists and proving that it was rape. Society absolutely does not "support" rapists.

-The law tells men not to rape women. Do you actually think that rapists think rape is legal? The police urge women to try and take precautions to avoid these people who break the law and this is not putting the blame on them, this is an attempt to help them avoid being victims of crime.

I honestly cannot see how asking a rapist not to rape can help. They are predators who like power, violence etc. They are not actually reasonable and responsive to such requests! Obviously rapists are the source of the problem and need to be tackled - but not by requests not to rape - by being put in prison!

whatstheetiquette rape doesn't involve violence; that is not the legal definition. The definition is lack of consent. This does need to be emphasised, because it's not like the movies (stranger, dark alley etc) So rapist's do think it's legal because they don't think what they do is rape, they think it's seduction or forceful persuasion or some such bull shit

Society does support rapists. The social and legal systems are set up to blame women for their own rapes and allow rapists to get away with it.

Only 15% of rapes are reported. Only 5% of rape reports result in a conviction.

Rape is de facto legal. And rapists know that.

Correction - they justify their behaviour, not necessarily believe it to be true

'Rapists commit rape because they have something wrong with them/their minds or personalities'

Yes, it'd be nice to think so, wouldn't it? Then we could just profile them, spot them all, and get rid of rape.

Sadly, again - it doesn't work.

There are many men who would never rape, no matter what the circumstances. However, there are also many men who seem like perfectly ordinary guys, but will rape if they think they can, or if they've been persuaded this kind of rape isn't really wrong, or whatever.

If there were some kind of mental flaw, or personality flaw, that forced men to rape, there would be a constant number of rapists in all societies. The passing of laws, such as that criminalizing rape in marriage, would have no effect on wider attitudes. Yet they clearly do (even if it's much less effect than we'd all like).

I wish people would stop making this claim, it is incredibly damaging and two minutes' thought would tell you it's not that simple.

Are we really going down the "All rapists have something wrong with them" route, again?

Firstly, whilst we hold that myth, it means that men who do have "something wrong with them" are held in fear... If we can see something "wrong" with someone, we assume them to be evil, etc. It demonises those who are different. We have enough stigma against mental illness as it is, without claiming all rapists have personality flaws, or something wrong in their mind.

Secondly, it plays into the whole "All rapists are mad men hiding down alleyways" myth. Again. And it minimises the experiences of women who have been raped by men they knew and trusted. They begin to blame themselves for not recognising these fictional personality flaws. Bear in mind, in 80% of rapes, the victim knew their attacker. Nothing like a kick in the teeth, telling them that, y'know, their rapist must have had something wrong with them.