Feminist perspectives on transgendered people

[toboldlygo]

Excuse the random intrusion (haven't posted here before) but I've been watching My Transsexual Summer on C4 and it's raised some questions for me; basically, I was just wondering if there was any sort of feminist consensus on transgendered/transsexual individuals, whether there's any difference in opinions depending on whether they are FtM or MtF, pre or post surgery etc.

Not looking for a bunfight, just curious, if it helps any I am a cisgendered female these days but went through a phase in my late teens of being desperately uncomfortable in my own gender and wanting very much to be male.

Jan Morris's Conundrum, about her sex change and the background to it, is very much worth reading - though of course there is a limit to how much she can communicate of her experience to those who haven't shared it.

Thanks to whoever corrected me re gender reassignment surgery, obviously I meant sex reassignment surgery!

Thanks mooncup, good idea. I'll get that.

Hully, yes, I am sure a trans person has different feelings and a different starting point to me. I have no objection to them labelling themselves as transgender, because gender is an important part of their lives.

I do object to them labelling me as cis gender when I don't believe that gender exists. I think it is about accepting that some people believe in gender and some people don't, and we simply have to accept that in the same way that we accept that some people believe in God and some people don't.

that makes sense milly

They will surely have had a mish-mash of experiences, bits of male privilege and bits of trans lack of privilege. Eg they get to go to the boys' school but get bullied there, they receive society's messages telling them they must be shit at maths because women are and they are a woman (they believe) but everyone else is treating them as if they are good at it because they are (everyone else believes) a man.

Maybe transsexual and transgender labels need to be swapped?

Maybe I could even go mad and actually watch the programme in the op!

Sorry, late replying but:

I don't think it's helpful to say they've lived as male. It needs qualifying. They've lived as male in our patriarchial society, which only validates a very narrow and restrictive ideal of masculinity.

However, unquestionably they have not lived as female. That is the point, IMO.

Good post Milly.

But God is (or isn't) a being. Whereas gender is an abstract noun referring to socially-constructed identities.

Hully, I think there is a lot of debate between transgender people about what transgender, trans sexual, genderqueer and gender non-conformity means and who it should apply to. I think they need to argue about that between themselves, and everyone else can just call them transgender because that is the umbrella name.

Moon, if gender is socially-constructed though (which I agree it is), it surely cannot be something innate that you could identify with?

Isn't the issue that feminists are like the atheists here, saying God/gender is just a social construct, while everyone else is saying no, it's a real thing you can feel is true?

Milly, I love your clarity.

I would like some

Mooncup, but to atheists, God is a social construction like gender. I think everybody believes there is a such a thing as socially constructed gender roles. But some people believe gender is innate - a real biological part of the brain. Some people believe innate gender doesn't exist.

So what I really meant was that I don't believe in innate gender, and if other people do, that is up to them, but there is no reason for them to label me or treat me as if innate gender exists for me. I will respect their right to live their life as if such a thing does exist, as long as they don't impose that belief on me.

I think I agree with the gender stuff, but what about the biological identification?

On the subject of gender being innate or social, David Reimer is an interesting case study that throws up a lot of questions.

For sure its cruel. Patriarchy is cruel. For sure they've lived as male with patriarchy's tightly defined box of what male is. And for sure that is problematic. I don't like patriarchy, hence why I'm a feminist.

People who don't conform to society's version of gender are shat on from a great height and it's shit.

But as gender is socially constructed so society, and this is currently patriarchal society, decides what this thing gender is. And using gender in this way is a bad thing and should be fought against.

See, Len, I don't know about calling them "men" if they strongly feel themselves not to be (even to the extent of surgery). That strikes me as unkind and a bit rude. I wouldn't say that they are deciding what it is to be a woman, even women (biologically determined ones) don't agree on that, they are saying that they feel themselves to be women (whatever that means). No?

OOI?

lenin - no, I know you didn't. Hully did. Previous page.

I suppose some people will identify with their biological sex and some people with their biological gender, and that is problematic because both will use the same term to describes themselves - woman or man. I don't know of any solution to that. I suppose it is one of things that would be dealt with on a case by case basis depending on the situation.

But we are clearly going to get nowhere by insisting that every single person uses one definition of the word, because some people will insist it refers to biological sex and some people will insist it refers to innate gender.