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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminist perspectives on transgendered people

497 replies

toboldlygo · 28/11/2011 19:10

Excuse the random intrusion (haven't posted here before) but I've been watching My Transsexual Summer on C4 and it's raised some questions for me; basically, I was just wondering if there was any sort of feminist consensus on transgendered/transsexual individuals, whether there's any difference in opinions depending on whether they are FtM or MtF, pre or post surgery etc.

Not looking for a bunfight, just curious, if it helps any I am a cisgendered female these days but went through a phase in my late teens of being desperately uncomfortable in my own gender and wanting very much to be male.

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Takver · 29/11/2011 12:40

OK, I don't know that much about this one, and hopefully someone on here knows more about the historical background.

But diving in, I don't think that people are only heterosexual because they have been socially conditioned to be that way, but surely social conditioning is a very important factor.

So for example, at a certain point in Greek history, as I understand it, it was the norm for men to have homosexual relationships during their lives - they were socially conditioned to expect to have such feelings/desires as well as to have heterosexual relationships for the purpose of producing children. Does that make sense?

samstown · 29/11/2011 12:43

Yes a few women are stronger and taller than men but genrally it is the other way around. It just is. If you just let people dress as they want, have their hair as they want etc, I am sure that you would still be able to tell who was a woman and who was a man!

And with the sexuality thing, if there were no gender constructs would most people still be heterosexual or would women and men fancy both women and men?! Is sexuality a socially conditioned thing? And if not, what is it that attracts me to a man if he is essentially the same as me?

samstown · 29/11/2011 12:48

Yes that is true Takver about the Greeks isnt it? Interesting!

toboldlygo · 29/11/2011 12:48

LRD I see what you mean. What I am interested in (and I guess I didn't make this very clear in the OP) is what the feminist perspective is on people who identify themselves as 'ungendered' (third sex/intersex/genderqueer etc), or the concept of being ungendered itself, I suppose. Quite naively I wondered if people who identified as nongendered/third gendered would be lauded here for their attempt to live outside of gender-based expectations and everything that goes with that.

I think that the nature of transgenderism means that it has to be discussed in terms of gender because it seems so important to the vast majority of people. The difference between being observed as a bloke in a wig or as a woman was of critical importance to the individuals concerned and apparently also of everybody else - lots of curious 'well, what are you, do you still have a penis?' type questions posed by complete strangers. Why did they need to know?

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WhollyGhost · 29/11/2011 12:50

I think that sexuality has been used as a defining characteristic in recent times, and it wouldn't always have been the case.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 29/11/2011 12:51

tak - I agree with social conditioning being an important factor. I think as well, the concept of 'homosexuality' is a social construct. Not every society where men sleep with men or women with women, would have the same understanding that this sex defines you in some way.

sams - 'Yes a few women are stronger and taller' ... yes, that's exactly what I said ... what's the issue? Confused

I think sexuality is partly innate, partly socially conditioned, and almost certainly individuals are different in the balance between teh two. I'm sure there are people for whom no amount of social conditioning can change the fact their sexuality is fixed. Others seem more able to choose, perhaps ebcause they are innatrely more aatteracted to both.

I don't know what it is that attracts you to a man if he's essentially the same as you. What is it that attracts me to a woman? Or a man? I don't quite get what you're asking?

toboldlygo · 29/11/2011 12:52

Sorry, lots of x-posting there, had the window open from earlier and hadn't refreshed. Let me catch up. Grin

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WhollyGhost · 29/11/2011 12:52

tobold - why do they need to know what job you do, where you live, whether you're in a relationship. People are just curious and pass remarkable. They don't need to know.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 29/11/2011 12:53

toboldly - to me, if someone identifies as 'ungendered' or 'third-gendered', that terminology implies that gender exists. That is problematic IMO.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 29/11/2011 12:59

Sorry, that was a flurry of posting and I just want to make a point a bit more clearly.

sams, you're asking what is it that attracts you to a man ' if he is essentially the same as me?'.

I'd say that I'm not convinced that it's as simple as 'opposites attract', that we're attracted to people who're different from us. This is the same argument I referred to above, about humans as a species not being very well differentiated by sex, unlike some species where sexual dimorphism really does play a big role.

I'd also say that I think that saying men and women are similar (ie., gender does not exist), is not proof that an indivuidual man is 'essentially the same' as an individual woman. We're attracted to people for a host of reasons, whether we're straight or gay, and not just because we think they're the same as us or different from us in terms of sex or gender. IMO.

KRITIQ · 29/11/2011 13:02

I'm pleased to see a measured, sensitive discussion about the issue. I struggle with discussions on the subject that too often end up with daggers drawn. I'll dip my toe in and say thumbs up to Mooncup's posts and LRD's wish to get rid of gender all together, as well as many others upthread. Apologies if I repeat anything already said.

In my view, feminists see the concept and the term "gender" as a social construct, one engineered to maintain patriarchal hegemony. But, the term "gender" is used both by and in description of feminists (Gender studies, Gender-based violence, etc.) and people who feel they were born into the wrong gender/sexual/biological identity or are something other than male or female (e.g. transgender.) We're all a bit hamstrung by that term I think. Like "Domestic Violence," it doesn't properly describe what we're talking about, but because it's in common parlance, it still gets used.

While the concept of gender dichotomy, male and female, is promoted by patriarchal traditions and institutions - so should be something feminists fight against, I think many still struggle to think outside that box, to contemplate that there could be something that isn't must male and isn't just female. I sometimes wonder if the condemnation of transgendered people by some feminists is linked to a fear of losing that gender dichotomy (i.e. male = oppressing class, female = oppressed class,) that supports their analysis of gender-based injustice. Dunno.

If from a very early age, you are aware that something "isn't right" in the gender/sex identity that has been assigned to you, the only viable alternative would seem to be to transition to the opposite gender/sex. I keep thinking of the essay by John Stoltenberg about how different things would be in a world where we truly accepted and valued many forms of body shape and sexual characteristics. But, we aren't in that world. For intersexed and/or transgendered people, becoming more closely identified with the opposite gender/sex from the one assigned at birth may feel like the least worst if not ideal option.

And because they will most likely be changing after puberty, they may feel more pressure to adopt more indicators of the opposite sex/gender in order to be more "socially accepted." For example, a person born female can have short hair, no make up and androgynous clothes and still be recognised as female. Someone who has transitioned may not be able to do this without taking on additional indicators like make up, hair and clothing (same goes for FtoM transitions in reverse as well.)

In my view, this pressure to "look" a certain way to be socially acceptable comes from the sexist impetus on women to conform to a particular shape and appearance to be considered "feminine enough," and that translates over to those people who transition. The psychiatrists who insist that those who wish to transition MtoF adopt more indicators of "femininity" as a condition of being taken seriously and given access to treatment, stems from this, imho.

Linked to Mooncup's 12:17:16 post, I feel uneasy with what seems to be attempts by some feminists to define and control what a "genuine" woman is, one because it seems very unkind to those who don't conform and two, in my book it too closely replicates the messages and mechanisms in patriarchy that also seek to define what a "genuine woman" is - based generally on adherence to some ever-shifting, impossible feminine "ideal."

Perhaps it's not surprising on this forum to hear many women describing their sense of identity as a woman, as a female being connected with having a womb and the capacity to carry and bear children. That's something neither men nor those who have transitioned MtoF can do. However, there are many women who either don't have the capacity or inclination to bear children, so imho, definitions based on reproductive functioning can be both hurtful and excluding for many women.

Someone either here or on one of the linked threads said that they were primarily concerned as a woman with the struggle for women's liberation, and that makes sense. However, feminists can and do demonstrate solidarity with the struggles for justice of other oppressed groups. They recognise that similar mechanisms of oppression can be used against many different groups and that individuals often identify with more than one disadvantaged group.

I have to say I've been startled though by some of the ill-informed, crass and hurtful terms used by some feminists when talking about transgendered people. Maybe folks think they are being witty and clever, but in my mind, the use of crude remarks about genitalia or personal insults is just appropriating the tactics of the oppressor and undermine any constructive arguments being put across.

(Have my crash helmet on.)

toboldlygo · 29/11/2011 13:04

Wholly - well, yes, I suppose so, but when meeting someone for the first time they don't generally ask me if I've got a working vagina!

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Hullygully · 29/11/2011 13:04

Can I just say that that is a popular misconception about the Greeks, they were into loving and admiring beautiful boys (agape) but not necessarily having sex with them (eros)

although I expect they did that too on occasion.

Hullygully · 29/11/2011 13:06

I agree with KRITIQ

LRDtheFeministDragon · 29/11/2011 13:08

hully, the greeks (or some greeks anyway) were into anal sex with both male and female children. Not the same point, but it sours the notion of agape for me. Sad

Hullygully · 29/11/2011 13:09

They were, peopel still are now indeed!

But I always have a desire to correct the idea that alll ancient Greeks were homosexuals, purely because they weren't!

Hullygully · 29/11/2011 13:10

What has always puzzled me is why men that want to be "women" want to look like Bet Lynch or Mavis. What is that about?

LRDtheFeministDragon · 29/11/2011 13:11

Indeed. Smile

I don't think 'homosexuality' as a concept is that common. Lots of people just assume you're having a particular kind of sex, but the idea that who you sleep with should be key to your identity is quite an interesting one.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 29/11/2011 13:12

(The 'indeed' was to greeks, not bet lynch. Obviously, I hope. Grin)

KRITIQ · 29/11/2011 13:13

(puzzled with what the Ancient Greeks have to do with this issue.)

KRITIQ · 29/11/2011 13:14

(also puzzled by the concept of a "working vagina.") Grin

toboldlygo · 29/11/2011 13:14

KRITIQ I'm glad you've touched on the issue of women's identity as being linked to their capacity to bear children. That idea is something I very much reject - I absolutely do not want to be defined by whether or not I have that ability and whether I choose to use it, and as such I would find it hard not to extend that definition to anyone identifying as female.

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Hullygully · 29/11/2011 13:14

So for example, at a certain point in Greek history, as I understand it, it was the norm for men to have homosexual relationships during their lives - they were socially conditioned to expect to have such feelings/desires as well as to have heterosexual relationships for the purpose of producing children. Does that make sense?

Here, KRITIQ^

toboldlygo · 29/11/2011 13:21

As opposed to a vagina living on benefits, of course. Grin

I think what I meant was 'when I meet people for the first time they generally don't ask me what my reproductive capability is and what my genitals look like'.

I was about to add 'and what sex/gender I identify as' but actually if I was meeting a a transsexual/transgender person and wasn't sure which sex they wanted to be identified as I'd probably ask them. Hasn't really come up before, the people I've been acquainted with used stereotypical gender markers and were generally very quick to introduce themselves with their obviously male/female name. I guess I mean in the instance of third gender identifiers, like the woman on the program who referred to herself as a woman but celebrated that fact that she was both and none, IYSWIM.

The whole 'zhe' and 'hir' thing confuses the hell out of me, I must admit.

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LRDtheFeministDragon · 29/11/2011 13:21

I do see your point Kri.

But OTOH, I would not want to see a vagina that is constructed solely as a sex object being teh defining characteristic of a woman. I can see that this is a tricky issue and much of the problem may be that surgery as it is currently, is I think still seen as a 'best' solution not a 'perfect' solution. But there is something that to me seems uncomfortably close to the patriarchial attitude that women's bodies are holes for sex, in that. Sad

I don't know if that is fair or not.

I think women who cannot use their wombs to have children, or whose wombs are removed, are certainly just as much women as anyone else and we shouldn't use this as a defining characteristic. But, IMO, it also seems wrong to say that a woman who's had a hysterectomy is the same as a MtoF transsexual. I'm not saying one is happier, or more admirable, or more deserving of sympathy than the other here ... just that tehy are different and will have had different experiences that are - inescapably IMO - to do with the sex they were born and identified as.