Feminist perspectives on transgendered people

[toboldlygo]

Excuse the random intrusion (haven't posted here before) but I've been watching My Transsexual Summer on C4 and it's raised some questions for me; basically, I was just wondering if there was any sort of feminist consensus on transgendered/transsexual individuals, whether there's any difference in opinions depending on whether they are FtM or MtF, pre or post surgery etc.

Not looking for a bunfight, just curious, if it helps any I am a cisgendered female these days but went through a phase in my late teens of being desperately uncomfortable in my own gender and wanting very much to be male.

Men can have the babies if they want. Not that wedded to my reproductive capacity that I couldn't cope without. Would miss having children though but they get nicer the less physically tied to them I am IMO. I found the intensity of the relationship with them when they were tiny almost oppressive. Much as I also loved it and mourned it when it was over.

I like the set up in Woman on the Edge of Time where no-one gives birth to babies - they are grown in machines and then any 2 of the 3 co-mothers (male and female) who are chosen for that baby can bf.

Bet that makes me much less 'female' than you hully

Oh yes, old Marge, I'd forgot about Marge.

Yes, that would be civilised, so much less physical mess.

Does it make us less women sans reproductive capacity?

Someone said earlier (Milly?) about women who had had hysterectomies. My identity, whatever it is, isn't connected to my womb or breasts at all. I think bodies are a nuisance and a let down in general.

Hully, not sure if you mean if women who have been through the menopause because of no longer having reproductive potential. Obviously they're not. It is just part of the process of women ageing. If you mean if all women didn't have any reproductive potential and never had it historically, then being a woman would have no greater meaning than having red hair.

Hmm. I wonder if I should have said 'psychotherapy' rather than 'psychoanalysis', as the latter seems to have some connotations that I'm not going to be able to shift single-handed on this thread.

I'm obviously not explaining myself very well, as I seem to have been taken to mean all kinds of things I didn't mean. What I said was that male and female are both identities and also biological realities, and that research seems to indicate that children generally develop a felt, physical sense of themselves as either male or female a year or two of birth, but acquire an understanding of the performed or social 'role' aspects of their gender at a later stage. I also suggested that the latter set of roles can be experienced by individuals in multiple and sometimes conflicting ways. There's evidence to suggest that this is the case for both men and women. I was talking here about relatively normative cases, and excluding the transgender experience. Better informed people than me can no doubt shed a bit more light on the lived experience of people that self-identify as transgender.

"a field that takes an interest in gender"

That would be feminism. Feminism deconstructed the whole are of gender roles - roles that the patriarchy including its subsidiaries like psychoanalysis are desperately trying to reconstruct.

I'm a bit puzzled by the idea that feminism could or should be the only field of research or thinking to take an interest in gender, and that this should be perceived as in conflict with psychoanalysis - Karen Horney, Susie Orbach and Judith Butler spring to mind as people who straddle both fields. For what it's worth, in my experience the therapy world is anything but patriarchal - my peer group is 10:1 women to men for starters, and among the psychotherapists I know there is if anything a prejudice against white heterosexual men. But I don't imagine my saying so will change anyone's mind

I'm also a bit puzzled by the idea that because I make a statement that conflicts with MillyR's worldview that means my statement is interpreted as having the nature of a religious belief, while Milly's views have the status of objective, observable fact. I've not seen anything other than assertion to back that position up.

I meant obviously they're not less as women just because they have been through the menopause.

I'm just not sure about that being the defining characteristic of womanhood (although I see the logic).

I dunno, that's why I'm questioning and thinking!

Manatee, because I am describing my own state of mind. I have no core gender identity. That is a fact.

Another person will feel that they have a core gender identity. That will be their state of mind. The existence of their core gender identity is a fact.

Your belief that having a core gender identity is a universal human experience that we all have, that is a belief.

It cannot be a fact because there are observed cases of people who have no core gender identity.

My beliefs that male and female bodies does have the status of objective, observable fact. You can look it up in Primary school science textbooks worldwide.

research seems to indicate that children generally develop a felt, physical sense of themselves as either male or female a year or two of birth

How can researchers tell, Manatee?!

Sorry, meant to write, my belief that male and female bodies exist does have the status of observable, objective fact.

Do they exist when you can't see them?

In the dark can't see them, or can't see them like we can't see the Force in Star Wars?

Hi, I'm a bit late to the discussion! Manatee your posts are fascinating. This whole thread has been really interesting, although i really wish there were some self-identified transgendered people here to give their viewpoints.

Thunderbolts, I find this view (from way up thread) hugely problematic: "If the idea of womanhood has been stretched to include people born with penises and testes then you've rendered it meaningless. I for one as a feminist am not happy with my basic existence being treated as meaningless." As a bisexual woman, it reminds me of the anti-gay marriage arguments that allowing gay marriage will take away the meaning of marriage. It seems to me hugely insecure of straight people to think that allowing non-traditional marriage would somehow affect straight marriage. Similarly, it seems really insecure to say that you "basic existence is being treated as meaningless" just because there are some people who cannot fit in with your chosen definition of womanhood.

I don't think we should ever deny the reality of the deep, lived feelings of transgender people just because they don't fit our favored theoretical model. As women we lack male privilege but i think we have far more privilege in society than most transgender people, and hence we need to be very wary of telling them that their views on this issue are wrong.

I'm sorry LeninGrad, I don't quite understand what you're saying. Are you saying that it's problematic that the law allows male-to-female transsexuals to be seen as women and vice-versa? If so why?

I still think that some posters are coming at this from a rational, scientific perspective and others from a postmodern one. So it will be impossible to achieve any kind of consensus.

But I would really appreciate it if someone can explain to me what it feels like to be a woman, and how you can know that you feel like one. I certainly have no core gender identity.

Marmite, you seem to be reversing the actual situation.

I am not trying to gain access to transgender spaces.
I am not picketing transgender health care venues.
I have not had the law changed so that I can enter transgender spaces.
I am not the one claiming that my psychological experience regarding gender is true for everyone.

These are all things that transactivists do to women.

But the law doesn't say women as a group don't exist... surely allowing transsexuals to be recognized as women just means the boundary of the group is slightly more flexible than before? Laws against racial discrimination aren't put in jeapordy by mixed-race people, and laws against religious discrimination aren't put in jeapordy by the fact that people can convert.

Marmite, how is being mixed race like being transgender?