male violence in training session

[vexedveg]

morning folks. i have name changed for this post and it may end up a bit of a rant.

I work in a violence against women (VAW) organisation with a specifc focus on challenging the normalisation of the sex industries. this is my job and i love it. I have come up against some pretty aggressive opponents and whilst i do not enjoy confrontation - it has been addressed and I felt in some ways in control with those "debates" and arguements. am normally the trainer / facilitator.

Thurs and friday this week i was selected to attend training on an exciting approach around VAW and was really looking forward to it. the idea in this approach is not negating survivors experiences but on to encourage young people to intervene safely when they see incidents in their peer circles.

this was meant to be training for trainers so we would then go out and deliver this new package. i thought that, like myself, people would have to apply, give their reasons for attending and at least have read their pre supplied background reading. Oh no - not the case.

It was quite difficuklt on thursday. there was a 50 / 50 split of men and women in the room but very quickly, the men started to try and gain contrpol of the room. they talked over women, interuppted, laughed, eye rolled, sniggered and passed pieces of paper. Some felt confident enough to say things like "but women are bitches" and "the word bitch is a female dog. how can any women be offended to be called an animal. I love dogs and have 3 as pets."

when i introduced myself and my work - there was a palable increase in tension in teh room and was told i was a gobby cow, just because i told them what the focus of my job was. I did not feel safe speaking out in that context, a feeling shared with many women in the room. I raised my concerns with the failitators and also felt that alot of these men's understanding of gender and violence was of concern as they were meant to finish 2 days training and then go out and work with young men in their communities on the issues. i was told it was better to just have men on board and that to expect them to read anything beforehand was unrealistic.

yesterday a really horrible incident happened. One of the men decided to take control of a large group discussion through anger and aggression. he said that every women in that room agreed with and wanted sexual harassment really. i responded with a "please dont speak n behalf of everyone. I dont agree with nor want harassment. if that is your opinion - own it and dont put it onto "every" woman in the room" He told me to shut up, that i was miss f*king perfect and would never do anything wrong. I asked him to explain that personal comment to which he refused saying i was a humourless bitch who couldnt take a joke. he then got out his seat, came across the room and stood in font of me leaning over shouting "you've Fking won, you made me lose my temper" He stormed out of the room, shouting all the way at me but did come back to say that i was an ugly fat f*k who no-one would even want to rape.

i was mortified and so so embarassed in front of all those strangers. I did get support from women and men in the room, however he majority of men thought i had asked for it by talking back to him. I couldnt believe that they didnt get the irony that we were in training around no longer being bystanders and how there were no justifications for male violence against women.

he was allowed to return after he apologised to the facilitators. He did not say sorry to me.
the facilitators asked if i would mind leaving the day as they could not guarantee my safety.

it is being followed up through my work but it has really really shaken me. i was scared at the time but i am now to angry as he humiliated me and in the short term was allowed to get away with it.

I needed to share with some fem sisters.

To Butterfly "their views" yes... i actually support the idea of Diversity rather than Equal Opps... the whole etho's of "Equal Opps" smacks of discrimination, Diversity on the other hand does not :)

I am just staggered.

Group situations can be strange and I have definitely been in training where an unpleasant vibe has developed, but this ist totally off the wall.

What has been the follow up?

Riakin, what on earth are you talking about?

You may hold "little debates" on how men and women view each other, but those are just subjective anecdotes from a handful of non-representative folk and frankly have no bearing on the issue of relationship/sexual violence prevention or the conduct of the training course in question.

The backgrounds of "these people?" While it is possible the learners' backgrounds will impact on how they engage with the content of the course, their views, experiences or prejudices should never be allowed to derail the course objectives, ruin the learning experience of others and definitely never make other learners feel threatened. For pity's sake!

I don't know where to begin with your presumption that clients from Asian/Islamic backgrounds are universally "old fashioned." Biased? Much.

BTW, OP, please come back to this thread and let us know what happened next.

KRITIQ,

Non-representative being those who are not directly linked to the OP's learners who are there deliberately because they have committed Domestic Violence against their spouse?

Seemingly... you are making a blatant statement that you have not actually done anything like this yourself... as you should know, the backgrounds of the people at these meetings form an imperative part of future behaviours. For example boys who from a young age see Fathers/Father figures hitting their Mum grow up to themselves do the same in many many instances.

Likewise girls who grow up in a situation where they have been attacked... will in some cases seek out and remain with abusive partners. As feminists and those who "follow without question" words from Womens Aid et al will be well versed in the remedies of "dealing with violent spouses".

I'm not attempting to derail it, but you by your seemingly ignorant position statement seem to be saying their background should not be allowed to "derail" a session you miss a founding principal of the above paragraphs.

Presumption? No not presumption. I take it you have never had to deal with young girls who cannot walk home alone and must be picked up solely by male relatives? Are not allowed out to shop unless it is with their Mother or much older sisters?

Prime example actually... "can't go bowling because my brothers go their"...

Your anecdotal evidence clearly contradicts mine.

'These men are sports coaches, community wardens and youth offending prevention workers - all selected by their own employers because they are considered "leaders' and role models'

I am just speechless OP. They sound like a pack of thugs. The thought that these men are in leadership roles within the community makes my blood run cold. Are these the sort of 'male role models' we're constantly being told that young men who have been raised by single mothers are lacking?

I hope you're ok. I agree with others who have said the police should be involved and that your employers need to support you to see this through. How absolutely sickening.

hi folks. i have just had a chance to get back to this thread - apologies for being away.

i will try and answer recent questions.

raikin - these men tended to be over 40 but don't know exact ages. I dont know their religious backgrounds so cant say if they were from islamic backgrounds. What i do know is that they all were white men ranging in ages from late 20's upwards. The anger, aggression and disrespect did come from the men. The women may have held strong views however - these were more on the socio, economic, political circumstances which led to inequality. they did not personalise nor attack in the way some of he men there chose to do.

branching out - i have been in group situations that also have a strange and unpleasant vibe and have had to facilitate groups through this. I have also been on the receiving end of abuse (verbal and online) because of my work but i think it was the fact that the facilitators didnt really intervene and that as i thought we were all there, basically on the same page in terms of our understanding of violence.

The lastest with the situation. As you know work is great about this. They are following it up with facilitators, course organisers and with this man's employer. All i can say is that it strikes me how some of those involved would prefer i just shut up and not say anything, as keeping these men on board is somehow more important than actually ensuring they dont do any more harm.

'All i can say is that it strikes me how some of those involved would prefer i just shut up and not say anything, as keeping these men on board is somehow more important than actually ensuring they dont do any more harm'

That's interesting vexedveg and extremely disturbing. Some people are so desperate to hang onto the status quo, especially when you rocking the boat challenges some very ugly behaviour that a lot of people were complicit in. You're very brave - keep going!

Vexedveg, thanks for coming back to the thread. I'm pleased to see that your employers are taking this seriously and following it up robustly. You shouldn't have had to deal with what you did on the course for starters. In addition, all those responsible for what happened (both the man himself and the facilitators) need to be held to account.

I'm still worried that whatever agency provided this training is providing a "product" that is not only of such appalling quality and not at all fit for purpose, but sends the opposite message to learners of what it is supposed to achieve and puts individuals at personal risk. I hope that will also be addressed.

Just to respond to Riakin . . .

Your initial post has been removed, but from what I recall, you were speaking of "men and women with whom you speak" about the issue of domestic abuse and I suggested that their views were only representative of THEM and had no bearing on the training group Vexedveg was part of. Vexedveg's training group was NOT comprised of people who were there because they were perpetrators of violence. They were practitioners supposedly being equipped with skills to support/prevent abuse.

So, although issues could arise during the course of the training about participant's past experience of abuse, it would be inappropriate to expect trainees to disclose past experience before the course. However, facilitators should be confident and skilled enough to deal with issues that could arise, whether related to past experiences or just trainees getting arsey and abusive towards other trainees!

Although it seems "anecdotally neat" to assume that boys who witness domestic abuse will probably become abusers and girls who witness it will probably become victims, evidence about "intergenerational transmission of violence" is inconclusive. I can provide sources when I have more time, if you like. Much of the literature points to low self-esteem in young women, for example, as a factor that will determine their involvement in abusive relationships and/or staying in abusive relationships. There are MANY factors that can contribute to low self esteem of young women and likewise, not all daughters of women who experienced abuse will themselves automatically have low self-esteem.

I also don't think it's helpful to assume that all or even most people from an Asian or Muslim background will be like so and so or such and such. It ignores the wide range of traditions within each of those broad descriptors. In the same way that I don't think it is helpful to say "all women are like this," or "all Lesbians are like that," such broad assumptions don't convey a sense of respect for the individual.

Well, at least you weren't preaching to the choir. You and the horrible incident have probably left some people with some serious food for thought.

Hope you're OK vexed. Totally shit experience, exacerbated by making you leave. Ridiculous.

I bet there quite intimidated by him, no excuse though he should be kicked to the kirb,

I'm really shocked for you on a training course about vaw of all places :(

OP I have every sympathy for you, that is a truly appalling situation but it does support something I have been saying for a few years now that there are far, far too many so-called "experts" out there who run training courses, websites, publish literature and hand out "qualifications".

They are in fact nothing of the sort and your experience bears this out.

Charlatans is not too strong a term for some of these people.

There is absolutely no justification for the facillitator, trainer, presenter, lecturer, organiser or what ever their self-assumed title was to deal with the situation in the way you describe. The company or organisation which staged the course should be held to account for their staggering ineptitude.

As well as action against the individual and course organiser I would suggest that your own employer takes a long, hard look at their ability to evaluate training and carefully consider if they are competent to do so.

There's a heck of a lot I am bemused/shocked by on this last page but I just want to comment on one thing that caught my eye.

Riakin, what do you mean by 'the backgrounds of the people at these meetings form an imperative part of future behaviours.'

That is a terrible thing to say, especially when you connect it to race. It is absolute rubbish to say that a person's background forces them to behave a certain way. I find it really offensive.

If the man was on the course as an employee of another organisation, then his behaviour was gross misconduct and he should be sacked from his job.

When I was working in HR a member of staff behaved aggressively on a training course (not as bad as your incident) and, after the appropriate procedures, investigation etc. was dismissed.

What an absolutely horrible thing to go to.

I think one of the most nauseating things about it is the idea that we must keep these men "on board" - even though they are clearly NOT - at all costs. Why???? Having someone as a "leader" who is prepared to victimise a woman IN A WORKSHOP ABOUT ENDING VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN is worse than having no leadership at all, obviously. At least left to themselves lots of teenagers have a conscience about standing by and watching someone be bullied. If they have a grown man there telling/showing them that it's FINE to physically and verbally intimidate others how are they supposed to resist?

Was the man there as part of his paid job do you know? Or is he a volunteer?

I pity his poor family as well :(