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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

male violence in training session

74 replies

vexedveg · 19/11/2011 12:24

morning folks. i have name changed for this post and it may end up a bit of a rant.

I work in a violence against women (VAW) organisation with a specifc focus on challenging the normalisation of the sex industries. this is my job and i love it. I have come up against some pretty aggressive opponents and whilst i do not enjoy confrontation - it has been addressed and I felt in some ways in control with those "debates" and arguements. am normally the trainer / facilitator.

Thurs and friday this week i was selected to attend training on an exciting approach around VAW and was really looking forward to it. the idea in this approach is not negating survivors experiences but on to encourage young people to intervene safely when they see incidents in their peer circles.

this was meant to be training for trainers so we would then go out and deliver this new package. i thought that, like myself, people would have to apply, give their reasons for attending and at least have read their pre supplied background reading. Oh no - not the case.

It was quite difficuklt on thursday. there was a 50 / 50 split of men and women in the room but very quickly, the men started to try and gain contrpol of the room. they talked over women, interuppted, laughed, eye rolled, sniggered and passed pieces of paper. Some felt confident enough to say things like "but women are bitches" and "the word bitch is a female dog. how can any women be offended to be called an animal. I love dogs and have 3 as pets."

when i introduced myself and my work - there was a palable increase in tension in teh room and was told i was a gobby cow, just because i told them what the focus of my job was. I did not feel safe speaking out in that context, a feeling shared with many women in the room. I raised my concerns with the failitators and also felt that alot of these men's understanding of gender and violence was of concern as they were meant to finish 2 days training and then go out and work with young men in their communities on the issues. i was told it was better to just have men on board and that to expect them to read anything beforehand was unrealistic.

yesterday a really horrible incident happened. One of the men decided to take control of a large group discussion through anger and aggression. he said that every women in that room agreed with and wanted sexual harassment really. i responded with a "please dont speak n behalf of everyone. I dont agree with nor want harassment. if that is your opinion - own it and dont put it onto "every" woman in the room" He told me to shut up, that i was miss f*king perfect and would never do anything wrong. I asked him to explain that personal comment to which he refused saying i was a humourless bitch who couldnt take a joke. he then got out his seat, came across the room and stood in font of me leaning over shouting "you've Fking won, you made me lose my temper" He stormed out of the room, shouting all the way at me but did come back to say that i was an ugly fat f*k who no-one would even want to rape.

i was mortified and so so embarassed in front of all those strangers. I did get support from women and men in the room, however he majority of men thought i had asked for it by talking back to him. I couldnt believe that they didnt get the irony that we were in training around no longer being bystanders and how there were no justifications for male violence against women.

he was allowed to return after he apologised to the facilitators. He did not say sorry to me.
the facilitators asked if i would mind leaving the day as they could not guarantee my safety.

it is being followed up through my work but it has really really shaken me. i was scared at the time but i am now to angry as he humiliated me and in the short term was allowed to get away with it.

I needed to share with some fem sisters.

OP posts:
thunderboltsandlightning · 19/11/2011 14:44

I shouldn't be cynical but "exciting new initiative in preventing violence against women" ought to be "sending men who are violent towards women to prison".

For some reason the fact that attacking women is actually a crime doesn't seem to be addressed very often.

readysteady · 19/11/2011 14:56

I may be totally wrong but i wanted to be able to set the scene in my head of what sort of training course based on your post. but am I being wrong to assume you were talking to people involved in lapdancing/pole dancing clubs etc?

edam · 19/11/2011 14:56

Good grief. And that's from men who were supposed to be learning how to prevent violence?!

vexedveg · 19/11/2011 15:22

femdragon - i am used to getting challenges and confrontations so i do spend a bit of my free head space time 'rehearsing and practising" how i respond to comments / questions etc. I might not feel it but i like to at least have role played it with myself to feel more confident responding. This was a new wrinkle for me yesterday.

scoundrel - i agree that I think these guys have issues and their employers thought it might be addressed through sending them to such training. how wrong were they! These men are sports coaches, community wardens and youth offending prevention workers - all selected by their own employers because they are considered "leaders' and role models.

My work, who are fab fab fab are of course supportive and we have already started the ball rolling in terms of informing further authorities and his employers etc.

i was stunned at the time and still am. It may not seem that much to other people but it really brought it home to me that when certain men are pushed slightly on their attitudes, they respond in this way.

ta folks.

i needed to off load earlier. :-)

OP posts:
TheRealTillyMinto · 19/11/2011 15:24

it must have been a horrible experience. it shows that your work is important.

he sounds very inadequate and not really able to cope with you being 'in charge'.

you deserve better.

LeninGrad · 19/11/2011 15:24

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

veryquickchange · 19/11/2011 15:25

In what capacity does he work????

vexedveg · 19/11/2011 15:29

readysteady - hi there.

my job is to challenge VAW with a focus on challenging the normalisation and acceptance of the sex industry. I was asked to apply for a place on the training to implement a new approach not to this but to VAW in general.

the training was meant to be for 'leaders" in communities who are potentially in positions to affect change and run workshops / initiatives in their local area. they came from a wide range of orgs / agencies / backgrounds. it was not meant to be an introductory session to gender, VAW or the issues. As far as i had been told - the people who would be attending would all have a fair enough grasp of the issues. it was not focused on the sex industry - i only spoke about it when introducing myself and my work - as we were all asked to do on the 1st day.

edam - i think that is what i am struggling with. if these are meant to be men who "get it' and want to do something about VAW - then the scale of what we are up against is immense!

OP posts:
thunderboltsandlightning · 19/11/2011 15:36

The facilitators should have ordered anybody behaving in a sexist or abusive (including verbally abusive) manner from the course.

It's really their fault this happened. They had the power to stop it and they didn't, which is appalling if they are doing training about violence against women.

vexedveg · 19/11/2011 15:37

leningrad - i agree with you and that may yet happen as it was only yesterday.

OP posts:
TheButterflyEffect · 19/11/2011 15:40

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SweetTheSting · 19/11/2011 16:30

Adding my support. I am so sorry this happened to you. If you want to contact the police, I am sure we would all be behind you and I hope a lot of the course members would too.

I completely agree with Leningrad, if I lost my temper and used aggressive and threatening language towards anyone at ANY kind of professional event or training, whatever the subject, I would expect to lose my job or voluntary position.

timidviper · 19/11/2011 16:36

I am stunned, that is totally disgraceful.

This course is clearly not "fit for purpose" if this is allowed to happen and the bully is allowed to remain while you have to leave.

Appalling. Do take it as far as you can OP

nursenic · 19/11/2011 16:39

Surely the trainers own work policy adheres to the law on harassment and bullying in the workplace? This states quite clearly that the victim/recipient is NEVER the one who should be asked to leave/be put on special leave/transferred etc.

Now even though you are not one of their organisations payrolled employees, you are still legally entitled to the same protection.

Are you a union member?

It needs to be strenuously addressed with the organisation and also the organisation that aggressive man belonged to. He is potentially guilty of gross professional misconduct as he was presumably representing his organisation whilst on the training day and may even have been attending on company time.

You should find out who he worked for, approach his employers and try to ensure your witnesses are in place.

It is wrong that this man is allowed to be anywhere near impressionable young people. He should be muzzled.

and what's the first thing an abuser says?

You made me do it!.....Is this not similar to what he said to you?

readysteady · 19/11/2011 17:28

thanks for clarifying OP. in any circumstances disgusting

PlumpDogPillionaire · 19/11/2011 18:35

Just to add another voice supporting you and everyone who's advised you to contact the police - and name the facilitators/organisation.
And to say that it sounds like you're well shot of this course - they teach 'safe intervention' of violent incidents but can't keep their own workshops as safe places? Hmm
Am not sure whether you should be shaking with rage or hollow laughter at their utter incompetence, could the awful man have been a plant and you the intended stooge?

xNinja · 19/11/2011 20:02

Good grief! I am horrified that you were put in this situation. I really don't understand though what the course was about and who were the sorts of people sent on it

abbeylockhart · 19/11/2011 20:42

The org running it should be contacting these men's employers and saying their behaviour was not on and ban them from future events.

Tbh id also consider contacting the police.

JeremyVile · 19/11/2011 20:59

Unbelievable!!

This wasn't some kind of staged, one-sided role-play or something?

KRITIQ · 19/11/2011 21:50

OMFG, I've read this with absolute horror. I'm guessing the course is either MVP or Bystander - and I can't for the life of me see how the attitudes, words and actions of the men on your course could be tolerated for even 5 minutes.

This terrifies me in so many ways.

One - for you, that you experienced that kind of abuse not only with no support form the facilitators and no sanction for the perpetrators, but that YOU were asked to leave because they couldn't guarantee your safety. FFS! I agree with those who suggest contacting the police regarding his actions for starters.

Two - who are these cowboys running this training anyhow? They are supposed to be upskilling community leaders to address relationship violence for young people but seem only to have succeeded in showing them how to be better abusers themselves. This is bloody, bloody dangerous. If you were sent on this course by your employers, then you need to tell them how ghastly it was and ask that they file a former complaint with the training providers. If you went under your own steam, it's really, really important to file an official complaint, and don't be fobbed off. It doesn't matter whether the providers were a charity, a public body or a private enterprise, it's not just ineffectual but actually DANGEROUS for them to be providing this training and not being able to maintain safety within the course.

Three - you honestly DO need to spread the word, particularly to let other organisations know not to have anything to do with the course and its providers. Others may fork over scarce funds or at least waste the valuable time of their staff or volunteers attending, and it's quite likely that they, too, will be at risk of abuse.

I've kicked up an almighty fuss in the past about training courses I've sent staff on that were not just crap but damaging. For example, there are some extremely dodgy equal ops and diversity courses about that actually seem to do more to collude with prejudiced attitudes than challenge them.

Is there any way you can name and shame here? If not, can I pretty, pretty please ask you to send me a message with the details? Thanks.

KRITIQ · 19/11/2011 21:54

Make that "file a formal complaint," not "former." I'm just fuming over this. You shouldn't have had to put up with ANY of this, the trainers should have stopped it dead in its tracks and ejected any participants not willing to abide by the ground rules.

Ah, and another avenue is to put in a formal complaint to the perpetrator's employer. If he was there representing X organisation, then he did what he did in the course of his employment, and chances are he could have been in violation of his terms and conditions of employment. If nothing else, his employers need to know he behaved appallingly, (but of course they may not really care, who knows?)

GeekLove · 19/11/2011 23:52

I am horrified by the way you have been treated by the facilitators and the organisation. If the course is still running they had better make sure that you are back there but the perpetrator is not. Have his employers and managers been made aware of the situation. At the very least there should be a disciplinary hearing. Contacting the police is also a good idea.

AlwaysWild · 20/11/2011 07:56

Re the what are these kind of people doing running a course like this question... I don't know the case here but speaking more generally the government's 'cuts' programme is also a mechanism for them to marketise public services. So no doing anything for a higher purpose, it's all about the cheapest deliverer. So public service delivery is no longer about who knows about stuff or gives a shit about it. Big businesses are waiting rubbing their hands waiting to take over stuff at cheap prices. They don't care what, just about the money. Can't link at the moment but search for Anna coote and the big society on you tube. She's from the new economics foundation and speaks about this.

Obviously there are still rights and stuff protected in law, but marketisation is about regulating and penalising after the event. So the energy company gets fined for overcharging, for example, but there's no expectation that they would just not overcharge cos it's immoral or not a 'nice thing'

AmorYCohetes · 20/11/2011 08:23

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PierceDeere · 20/11/2011 08:57

This is utterly appalling, OP.

I really, really hope you are able to take this as far as you can and I second everything Amor says.