is it possible to discuss ways to avoid rape without being sexist?

[WishIwereAtTheWiesnProst]

I have one dd, and when I think of the statistics and situation I have been in it scares the hell out f me that one day she'll be old enough to be let out of my sight.

So if as a mother I tell her that she should avoid drinking to excess because she might find her in a situation where she can't say no, would that be sexist or even worse would I be making her feel responsible if she ever did find her self in that situation and someone did rape her? Or make her feel like she couldn't tell me or the authorities?

I know stranger rape is rare and that walking down a dark alley isn't how it happens for the vast majority of women, but if I mention that there is an underpass (like in my last town when I lived in the UK) that had a dodgy reputation due to a few women being raped there am I then perpetuating a rape myth? Or again making her feel it is her fault if one day she takes the short cut?

If the majority of rape cases happen with someone you know do I have to explain to dd that this is the case and that if a man thinks he is "owed something" or pushes too far that she needs to scream bloody murder so hea realizes that what he is doing is engaging in rape? Or is this putting my daughter in the position of being his moral guide?

What do you tell you children?

I think what I'm trying to say is, yes, this kind of 'warning' about rape if it supercedes warnings about other dangers of excessive drinking possibly is slightly sexist.
Girls should not see themselves as potential rape targets who have to consider other people's inadequacies and seeing them as somehow inherent or normal, to the extent that they are curtailing their own behaviour, IYSWIM.
On the other hand, though, neither should young people, male or female, think that it's in any way OK to drink to excess.

I think as parents there is very little we can do to prevent our daughters being raped or sexually assaulted because essentially it's a just wrong place wrong time, there but for the grace of god thing. We can try and give them tools that may or may not help with tricky situations and we can hope that the advice we give them about relationships is helpful. However when it comes to the aftermath should something bad happen we really can make a big difference.

When I was assaulted as a pre-teen I didn't go home because I was scared that the guy might see where I lived. So I ran to a neighbour instead. And they were totally fantastic. They believed me totally, rang the police, told me that it was in no way my fault, gave me advice about what I might be able to do another time (be less polite basically!), told me about similar things that had happened to them, and in short got me through the initial shock and into a place where I felt OK with myself (it wasn't a serious assault, but very shocking to a rather naive 11/12 year old).

My dear mother on the other hand on finding out a few years later decided to use my experience as a teaching aide at the school we both attended. She also told my sisters on being flashed at that that was really just to be expected from men and that they should pretty much get over it. If I m ever in the position when my children need to be supported through a bad experience I know who my role model is!

I do a martial art for the fun of it, and have done for years. I don't kid myself that it's any help at all against a knife or a gun, or if you get unlucky and are attacked without warning and get a sharp blow to the head etc... However, it has done one good thing: it has reduced the shock value. I know that when I started, I would get very shaken up in a fight, although it was all controlled and I wasn't injured or in pain. It's just that women don't get that full-contact, someone-wrestling-you-to-the-ground or elbowing-you-in-the-head kind of experience that boys/men often get through sports or rough play.

Now after some years, I can get punched in the head (accidentally! but still hard), thrown around, landed on top of, elbowed etc, and I might not enjoy it but I don't freeze or get shaky like I used to. And some skills help - especially if you train to fight on the ground. Hopefully I could do enough to put him off and make him think it's not worthwhile. (Mind you, not many martial arts involve so much physical contact, and many don't do much training on the ground, so you wouldn't get these particular aspects from all of them.)

There are lots of circumstances which can neutralise all this. Still, I'm glad my dd has shown some interest in this as a sport because I think just the physical confidence of being roughed up and knowing that you can take it, rather than taking a body blow and thinking 'OMG, I have no control over this' - I think that experience or knowledge is really valuable.

I have always been told that attacking a stranger or fighting back is one of the stupidest things anyone can do. You have no idea what they can do, whether or not they have a knife, whether or not they have three mates behind you. It is beyond idiotic to try out your martial arts skills in the hope they don't kill you.

I know this is not relevant to the vast majority of rapes but it is relevant to the way people talk about attacks.

Agree with you Ella. One of the things that is good about learning martial arts is something an ex-boyfriend of mine taught me who was a black belt in something or other. Basically it's about occupying space in a way that made it clear you felt you deserved to occupy it. Walking down the street and not automatically being the one to alter your path when someone is coming towards you. I hadn't realised I always did that until that point.

Some good advice here. I would also add that all DC should be warned against drinking to excess and wandering around alone, pissed, late at night. Because if you do that you might fall and hurt yourself, and/or get mugged.

Yy SGB, nearly all advice that is actually going to be any use against stranger rape is actually just advice that will put people off (or make it harder to) attacking you in general, whether they want to rape you or steal your wallet or just knock you over and laugh.

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Here are some things I teach my very young DD:

It's perfectly alright if she doesn't want to hug or kiss someone, even if that someone is a relative.

Anyone saying "awww, but you're making grandma sad" has to back off, because it's her body and her comfort that's important. She doesn't owe it to grandma to be nice. And I will say that in front of her because I want her to hear it, from me.
Likewise, if she's feeling shy in a social situation, that's alright too. She can take her time to warm up.

Because I fucking HATE how a two year old is made to feel as if it's her duty to provide the people around her with interaction. Every time someone tries to cajole her onto their lap when she's showing body language that she doesn't want to, every time they say "it's only grandad, love, just a little kiss to make him happy", every time they talk in terms of her being 'unfriendly' if she's not comfortable with physical interaction, they are training her that her body is public property. And her physical autonomy is less important than the 'hurt feelings' of a fucking grown up.

Obviously I believe in manners, making eye contact, saying hello and goodbye and please and thank you. But I never realised, until I had a child, how young this expectation starts. We expect women to be soft, passive, appeasing, not to offend, not to be paranoid, to smile at strangers, to be polite in case the guy who's making them uncomfortable actually is just awkward or misunderstood...and then we want them to be fierce fighters, screaming and kicking to defend their 'purity', at the drop of a hat.

So I teach her this now, as the most helpful thing I can think of to lay the groundwork for later: her responsibility starts and ends with her.

tortoise that post spoke very powerfully to me (as a survivor) about that 'fear of seeming rude' which is so paralysing, specially when you're young. Nicely put.

Blackcurrants, there's a post I love by Fugitivus about this - bollocks, I can't find it, but I think it was called She Didn't Fight Back Because You Told Her Not To. I'll keep searching for it.

I did think about this after I'd gone to bed last night, and wondered if I was skirting the 'if you don't respect your boundaries no-one else will therefore it is your fault' line. But I don't think so - it's just that when we talk about altering female behaviour, it's utterly pointless to talk about stranger rape and short skirts, but I think it is - er, pointful - to talk about how to help your teenage daughter spot the creepy guys early on. And to feel comfortable calling the creepy guys out when they're pushing someone else's boundaries, not just yours. Changing rape culture, I guess.

Found it!

Tortoise that is brilliant! I think that sums up why some of my friends repeatedly were targeted and ended up in situations where they had no control! I've been called the snobby, stuck up, rude, whatever one who acted on alarm bells. In no way shape or form did the friends who did get targeted more frequently deserve it though, its 100% the men's fault they shouldn't have been out there trying to control young teens, but I guess in a way I just came across as harder work than others and AS SOON as the hairs on my back were up I'ld re-gain my space. That didn't mean I 100% avioded sexual assault, I didn't, but there are some situations where I KNOW I got away from something horrible!

IMO (and somehow I even knew this back in my teens!) if I resisted advances and the man then turned around and started calling me frigid, snobby, stuck up... then that was proof that turning that person down was the right thing to do IYKWIM

Also as has been mentioned I think that giving these tools about control and choice and trusting own feelings, means that god forbid if the worst happens, then they are more likely to seek comfort and support and then it may be less likely to become regular abuse. I hope so anyway. In our house secrets are not allowed unless they are 'surprizes" (i.e. everyone will be told soon but not yet for a nice reason)

like when a much older man who was respected in the community said he would tell my father that I told him to off, I replied that I couldn't care less, and I'm sure my father be much interested in the things he had been saying to his underage daughter and her friend than my "rude" reply!. The friend I was with was annoyed with me cause she thought we'ld now get in trouble with our parents.

That man DID get very young teens to go home with him. Regularly

Grumpelstiltskin, what was it that gave you such confidence as a teenager and such faith in yourself? Because that, I'm sure, is what we all want for our daughters, that they're not hampered by that social conditioning to override their uneasiness about people. Was it just that your parents did a bloody good job, or were there other factors?

my parents listened to me and believed me and didn't talk down to me that much I suppose. If someone treated me unreasonably my parents stood up for me, having witnessed that I guess I felt it was the right thing to do, not just to speak up for myself but also to speak up for others. Like if I "told tales" I'ld be listened to and they would discuss the problem with me. I think you gotta start with the small stuff - Like the other day a child hit my child on the head in the play park with something metal, I know it's not "done" around here to tell someone elses child off, you're supposed to track down the carers and tell them, but I didn't want my LO to see me seeing him get hurt and not speak out immediately so I risked being slagged on on NMs (LOL) and stopped the child and said that I had seen what he did, it could have seriously hurt my child and it was not okay!. Also my son sees that if I see anyone being hurt I do something. I saw a woman being agressive to her child in the supermarked the other day when my LO was with me and alerted the store managers and asked them to get their safeguarding person.

My mum would be "rude" like that on my behalf when I was little.

but I really do think it starts with the little things then trickles down to the bigger issues. I would never turn my child away and tell him "not to be silly" if he was scared of monsters etc at night time.

Lots of interesting points, fabrege eggs, Fiats and jam sessions...

My main rape myth/cliche I hate is about not walking through a dodgy area. What if you LIVE in a dodgy area? What do you do then? Are rapists more likely to be hanging around in a poor area? Why is it that men are vastly more likely to be mugged/attacked than women are to be raped and yet you don't hear men being told 20 times a day not to walk through dodgy areas?

I've had two dodgy experiences. Once, a friend of a friend pushed me up against the wall and wouldn't let me go (pushed him off me), and once, in the middle of a European capital city, a man got his cock out and wanked in my and my friend's direction, on a Saturday night, with hundreds of other people around.

Rape has nothing to do with walking in a "bad" area and everything to do with some men being scumbags.

Tortoiseshell, that link is AMAZING

Good thread.

Yes, I love that link and think about it every time someone trots out a rape myth. It's so clarifying! Everyone should read it.

[ponders handing out printouts on the subway]