is it possible to discuss ways to avoid rape without being sexist?

[WishIwereAtTheWiesnProst]

I have one dd, and when I think of the statistics and situation I have been in it scares the hell out f me that one day she'll be old enough to be let out of my sight.

So if as a mother I tell her that she should avoid drinking to excess because she might find her in a situation where she can't say no, would that be sexist or even worse would I be making her feel responsible if she ever did find her self in that situation and someone did rape her? Or make her feel like she couldn't tell me or the authorities?

I know stranger rape is rare and that walking down a dark alley isn't how it happens for the vast majority of women, but if I mention that there is an underpass (like in my last town when I lived in the UK) that had a dodgy reputation due to a few women being raped there am I then perpetuating a rape myth? Or again making her feel it is her fault if one day she takes the short cut?

If the majority of rape cases happen with someone you know do I have to explain to dd that this is the case and that if a man thinks he is "owed something" or pushes too far that she needs to scream bloody murder so hea realizes that what he is doing is engaging in rape? Or is this putting my daughter in the position of being his moral guide?

What do you tell you children?

edam - I am really appalled by your sister's experience (both the crime itself and the aftermath). No wonder we have such a high rate of unsolved crimes when the police are so rubbish.

Re acquaintance rape/sexual assault, my mother always told me to be on the look out for 'men who pounce', what in her day were known as Not Safe In Taxis. AnyFucker I think wrote a good post a while ago about 'spidey sense' - listening to your instincts and acting on them. I don't think it's blaming the victim to tell girls that while most men are perfectly decent, there are always a few whose sense of entitlement/lack of scruples means that they will try to push you further than you might want to go.

Other crucial point of course as mentioned above is that sex should be fun, and if it stops being fun the woman (or man!) has every right to stop, at any point.

This is a brilliant thread - thank you for starting it, OP.

I need some help, but I don't know where to post. I haven't been raped, I'm scared it might happen, and there's nothing I can do about it.

where should I ask, would chat be Ok? Sorry to barge in

sarah - sorry to hear that. Are you worried about someone you're in a relationship with raping you? If so the Relationships section would be a good place.

that sounds awful, Sarah, do start a thread in relationships.

Apologies for not reading your whole thread, Wish. Imo the only ways to 'avoid' rape are the same as any other assault. If you've got a clue it's going to happen before it does, make a rapid exit. If you had no warning, you're being assaulted and options are, in no particular order: get help; fight; persuade/dissuade; sumbit. In real life, you'd try all of them at various points.

The best defence is self-defence. Put the pair of them on judo, karate, kick-boxing and/or general self-defence courses. Improves confidence no end, and works :)

Also vv important to ensure young people have a strong sense of ownership of their own body, require that other people respect that and afford it to others. Self-defence training should strengthen that, too - if it doesn't, it's not a self-defence course!

That sounds good SGM - am determined to do some serious feminist reading when current work crisis is over.

All this stuff needs to be discussed much more frequently and openly. Partly to reduce the level of shame/embarrassment women still feel when talking about it, and partly to make men realise that committing sexual assault of any sort, on anyone is wrong and likely to end up in trouble for them. Low-level social pressure is immensely valuable (cf drink driving).

Fantastic book, SGM, and a thrilling read! Good choice :)

Thanks, Edam and Mooncup. I need to get together what I want to ask before I start a thread I think but will do it.

Obv it's not possible to avoid rape unless you avoid rapists and as we don't know who they are, it's a bit of a conundrum.

But I think the "trust your gut instinct, don't override it, don't be afraid of looking silly" advice is good for any situation (not just rape or murder) and also that book the gift of fear, is required reading.

developing that spidy sense definitely . trusting your instincts.

I was almost attacked getting into a lift in my apartment block - the man slipped into the building behind me and I noticed it was strange he didn't close the door behind him (planning for a quick getaway). As I stood waiting for the lift I felt that he was standing too close to me, in my personal space, and my instinct told me just to run up the stairs to get away from him BUT I DIDN'T. I don't know why, I suppose I thought I was being irrational. as the lift was arriving he reached out and stroked my bare shoulder (it was summer) and I luckily had a massive reaction, shouting in his face, pushing him away and basically out of the door. He was quite young (poss inexperienced attacker? even if that's a horrible thought) and I think he was a bit shocked by my reaction.
But the point is that I could so easily have got into the lift with him because I didn't listen to my instinct.

Confidence is a really interesting thing though, I was a very confident little girl, I knew what situations to enter and what not to do and because I was confident and knew about stranger danger I confidently walked into a situation I couldn't get out of.
I am so ashamed that I put myself in that position with the knowledge that I had, I am ashamed I didn't scream and horrified that in parts I tried to please him so that it would be over quicker.(it made no difference). I hate the fact that because I listened to ill advice I didn't go to the police and that he is stll out there and has been possibly been continuing attacking young girls for the last 25 years. And as a final bit of poision it has left me with is the knowledge about how appauling my relationship is/was with my parents as I knew that I would be in more trouble for bringing scandal to the family.

Sorry for the rant, I have no idea what my mum could have taught me that would have avoided that situation. What she could have done is not let an 11 year old girl take charge of her 7 year old brother and their luggage to travel across the country by train alone to and from boarding school.

Greyskull you've got nothing to be ashamed of, please believe that.

You did nothing wrong. The person who attacked you did.

oh, Greyskull

But I have to insist on this: you didn't put yourself in that position. Do you see? He put you in that position. He did. Him.

I absolutely sympathise with you, both as the adult you are now and the little girl you were then. I know that those feelings of guilt and shame don't go away easily. But in all honesty, it is him who should be feeling them. He attacked a child. He attacked you.

I know what it's like to feel responsible, though, and you have my total sympathy - at the same time as my steadfast refusal to agree with those feelings I am also in therapy in order to recover from rape and abuse, and frankly I am royally fucked off that it is me and not the man who raped and abused me who is seeking help. Currently, it's about the only way I've found of actually feeling angry towards him and feeling that it was unjust for me to get blamed. But it works and it's a start. One of these days I'm going to really believe that it was all his fault.

one day I hope to agree with you but for now as with my therapist we will have to agree to disagree.
I am sorry you have also gone through such horrific things

I don't don't don't think anyone "asks" for rape or that anyone can 100% avoid it but I think that, no I am sure that listening to my own fear and the hairs on the back of my neck, and not being afraid to appear rude/silly by reacting to that, has got me out of situations that I'm sure could have deteriorated. And friend of mine who are possibly more vulnerable because of having personalities where they must always be nice and polite, have ended up having things happen to them that they DID NOT deserve, but that they did sense comming but feel they could say/do anything about until it was too late because they didn't trust their fear/didn't want to be the boring/rude/silly one

and of course there are situations that noone can get out of. Noone deserves rape, but IMO not telling children "not to be silly" when they're scared of something, and not telling them they must never tell tales etc, may encourage them to trust themselves and run when their body tells them to run IYKWIM

I know, Greyskull. I disagree with my own therapist too! Can easily be your ally, though

Yes I agree, teaching your DC's that it's right to trust their feelings, trust their instincts, is really important, not just for extreme situations like rape/ assault, but also for everyday stuff like relationships. Spotting the red flags, feeling uneasy about someone, etc.

yeah! that's it, red flags!

that doesn't mean I think "oh I'm fine cause I spot red flags and victims obviously don't". I just think its an important thing to protect that instinct in children and not quash it, like you see so often (e.g. go away and stop telling tales, don't be silly of the strange man dressed in that odd costume you've never seen before, if you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all etc etc)

I agree totally about your instincts. I also have let my own children decide who they give a kiss and cuddle to.

I work with young women around sexual exploitation / sexual violence and what shocks me on many levels is how many of them have totally internalised rape myths along with an acceptance of abuse and violence. Many of them hold women to blame for whatever happens to them.

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weeonion that sums it up so perfectly

Plenty of good reasons not to drink to excess, Wish. If listing them to DCs (or anyone else), I'd say that the possibility of getting raped is only one of many, many reasons to avoid excessive drinking.
If you're in the UK, binge drinking culture certainly is something you should be warning/protecting DCs against.
(As I've said), I think there are many, many reasons to be concerned about this aside from increased possiblity of rape/disastrous sex.