Music - just for the boys?

[WilsonFrickett]

just watching 'Scotland's greatest album' on catch up. A panel of 6 with one woman who (so far, I'm only 10 mins in) seems to be either struggling to be heard or has nothing to say, and Claire Grogan as the presenting toots. Was there really only one Scottish woman muso available? Or is music still just for the boys?

I think there is still a perception that music, or at least "proper music" is a boy thing. I know I read somewhere that the NME pitches itself to advertisers as being aimed at males aged 14-25, although I used to read it, and presumably other female music fans do too.

The past 10-15 years or so have not been good for women in music, but that has changed in the past year or two - lots of great young female artists coming through. I think that punk and post-punk provided a lot of openings for female musicians, as did the American indie rock boom in the 90s - lots of great women there. Although the whole Britpop thing started as quite co-ed in nature, that became part of that vile "lad" phenomenon, and I think the music suffered. It became very conservative, backward-looking and snobbish.

I could write a whole massive post on the airbrushing-out of women like Louise Wener and Sonya Aurora Madan from Britpop's history. There is even a blacklash against a band as great as Elastica now - lots of criticism of them being derivative (all Britpop was derivative) and too middle-class.

I don't read the music press anymore (too old, rather than too female ) and I guess I assumed it had just got better, especially with so many female artists coming through the ranks. I was extra because it was TV as well, because there's usually a fair amount of pressure to balance things properly there. And as far as I could see, the woman that was there was there because she was an MSP, rather than having any serious music creds.

All a bit rubbish, really.

It is crap. I read Kerrang magazine as a teenager and remember them having a massive fuss every time there was a new female-fronted band or band with a female member. Lots of jokes about how women "can't play bass" (Erm, Suzi Quattro??) or "can't play the drums" (Can't think of an example )

Also WTF? Look what I found while googling!

Women are so rare they have their own section on wikipedia!

Karen Carpenter was a drummer, Bertie.

I've been influenced by my new boss and am listening to lots of new music now - we have it on at work. A lot of the time, I think the music blogging scene has helped female artists a lot - there is much more possibility to get your music out there now. However, if you want musical misogyny, look up a popular new singer called Lana del Rey. She has produced two lovely tracks recently, and her first UK tour has sold out. When she first appeared, the major blogs were all over her, but then someone with a grudge (I think) posted a load of old material she did online, starting a massive hate campaign against her, mostly based on her appearance and supposed "fake"ness. It is harder for women to be taken seriously - one sniff of record company involvement and they are written off as manufactured.

I don't think that music is just for the boys at all, however, I do think that obsessively becoming 'into' a band (or sport, or anything, really) tends to be more of a male characteristic. Women seem to be more balanced in their interests/hobbies.
This isn't anti-feminist at all, just a general observation.

Personally, I love music.
A lot of rock music is misogynist in tone- think The Stones and Led Zeppelin (a creepy band if ever there was one) as is rap, but a lot of bands haven't got misogyny running through their music. Some types of music are positively feminist -I'm thinking a lot of disco music here.
If you want some music that is neither feminist nor misogynist, the dreaded prog rock genre of the 1970's is probably a place to look- the lyrics may make no sense a lot of the time, but the lyrics tend to be about landscapes and human experience more than anything else. Dark Side of the Moon being a classic example.
A lot of these bands were/are fronted by strong women who aren't just seen as being attractive (if they are attractive, that is).
It is a much derided musical genre, especially by the over-40 music journalists with their teenage boy mindsets who haven't got over the, frankly, naff and outdated idea that everything pre-punk was worthless, but it's got a lot to offer.

Interesting - never thought about this.

Was listening to Back in Black (AC/DC) in my car today. Other CDs in my car were Pearl Jam, the Beatles, William Bell, Otis Redding, Israel Kamakawiwoʻole, Iron Maiden, UB40, Fine Young Cannibals.

Also - Cyndi Lauper, Etta James and Adele.

You know why I like Adele? Cos she can sing the Bob Dylan song.

Otherwise, fuck her.

wamster do you think that's why there are so few female pundits (for want of a better word)? The thing was, there were and will be some brilliant female artists represented on the programme, it was the commentary balance that really, really annoyed me. But there must be female music geeks, surely?

And, and - Bertie, I actually can't believe that wikipedia entry. And I love Dark Side of the Moon. And Adele. (I don't start that many threads out with SN so feel the need to respond lots!)

My DS plays electric guitar and I am constantly amazed and a little depressed by what a boy thing that is whenever he goes to music camps, clubs etc...

There does seem to be something of the boys obsessional thing to it.

HTH with female musicians - Denise Dufort, Kelly Johnson, Kim McAuliffe and a succession of female bass players in Girlschool, L7, Courtney Love, Darcy Wretsky (only woman in Smashing Pumpkins), Sean Yseult of White Zombie...
Oh and female music journalists, plenty of them too, Carol Clerk (RIP) Pippa Lang, even Julie bloody Burchill.

Yes, there are lots of women in bands but they haveto swim against a very strong current. On the whole, women in bands (and I mean bands rather than solo artists - just because that's what I know about) are NOT FUCKING WELCOME. There is a fabulous male-fantasy party going on out there where guys play music and manage bands and roadie and do sound and drive buses and girls get on their knees and willingly suck their cocks. And when you show up as a woman musician, you are spoiling the party because you're on the wrong bloody side of the equation.

That's not to say that every bloke in the music business feels that way about women, but the majority really do

Yes, I do think why there are so few female music pundits, getting obsessively into anything tends to be a male characteristic.
This may be a good thing or a bad thing depending on point of view- is it better to obsess over one thing or be a more balanced person?

I think there are female musical geeks. I wouldn't say I was a geek as such, but I do love music. Really love it as opposed to having something on in the background in the car.
I'm not interested in every single venue the bands I like played in, though, or how many different versions there are of a record.
Pink Floyd are one of my favourite bands, as are The Smiths, I think both bands have got some new releases (or, more accurately, new versions of old releases) now in 5.1. surround (or whatever!), I don't care about stuff like that.

I guess my musical choices tend to be more 'male' than female. But I don't tend to mention it to men that I like certain prog bands, because if they like them, too, I'd get a rundown of what venue x band played in etc.

Even more boring are the 'everything before 1976 (i.e. punk) is crap' crowd. The irony is that punk was supposed to be about youth and newness yet here they are 35 years later going on about it! They don't see the irony!
But I think it is to do with the male tendency to classify and pigeonhole things they like.

wamster has hit it on the head about men gettting obsessive and tending to classify and pigeonhole.

They also use music as part of their tribal labelling systems in a way which I don't think women do and it's alsways hard for women to break into male "tribes", should they wish to.

Panels are also mostly male on e.g. comedy shows (Have I got News For You, QI etc etc) and sports programmes. In all cases I think it's mainly a case of men picking men because they just don't identify with or respect women. It's not just a music thing

MrsLadywoman- I am sure the culture of bands you are describing is fairly accurate....but I keep thinking about all the rock camps, battle of the bands, hanging around in each others bedrooms learning chords etc.. my son has gone to - starting at around age 8 - it has always been quite boy dominated.

It seems to be something that boys get into early on much more than girls. There are some girls, but not so many. At that age its really nothing to do with groupies and blow job etc...

Himalaya

Oh god no, I'm not saying that's the only reason (and certainly not for an 8-year-old)! Just one of many reasons.

Music is marketed at women differently, too. Over the last few years I have noticed a lot of ads for music compilations for women, which are invariably shit offering a very narrow, men's definition of what music women are supposed to like. So it's all disco, chill-out and I Will Survive. Not much Patti Smith/Polly Harvey/Kate Bush/The Slits, for some reason.

Mind you, I have been repeatedly driven batshit over the years by male 'feminist' music journalists bigging up horrendous rubbish like Huggy Bear (witless incompetent racket by a couple of self-obsessed art-school prima donnas) as 'music for women' and repeating the same old nonsense that 'feminist' music doesn't have to be listenable because musical competence is a 'male' thing.

solidgold, I'm so glad you said that. I remember that whole Riot Grrl thing and found it vaguely inspiring, but there was little to no actual good music that came out of it, and it did not even feel that inclusive to a straight, lower middle class, introspective, British music geek who had actually had some musical training.

I do think that a lot of music touted as "feminist" has privileged exhibitionism and shouting the right things over the music itself. It's hard to say that though.

"The Sex Revolts" by Joy Press and Simon Reynolds is a good read about this, though a bit dated now.

My dc are really liking pop atm, so we are playing lots of M.I.A., Santigold and Gaga.

Am trying to do "Hey look! Here's some women making brilliant records! With their tops on! Or if their tops v are off it's because they felt it necessary for their creative process!"

Kimya Dawson is quite brilliant but slightly more worthy.

Was just having a Youtube rummage and reminded myself of which I always liked. One comment described it as a lesbian love song - I used to think it was about polyamory, but it's definitely on the subversive side.

There are exceptions. That ole sleazo and national treasure, Lemmy, went out of his way to support Girlschool; not because they were girls but because they were good. Marianne Faithful has made some stunning music and one of the most vitriolic songs of all time ("Why d'ya do it?") On the other hand, the riot girl music was almost universally shite as is any music made with a non musical agenda- Nazi punk and national socialist black metal being two other examples.
One female artist who I always mention when these threads come up but nobody seems to check out is Diamanda Galas who does have an agenda but is so far beyond the pale that it doesn't matter. She scares the shit out of everyone, using mostly just her voice and a piano.
As far as more mainstream music goes, Shakira is one of the most talented, intelligent and unique musicians and songwriters around.

SGB beat me to mentioning Girlschool. I used to have arguments with my brother in the late 70's over his view that women couldn't play drums because "they don't have the physical strength to do it properly" so I was most chuffed when Girlschool became one of his favourite bands and he had to eat his words...:o

I think that a fair number of men do tend to be geeky about music, but in the same way that they can be geeky about cricket stats, or science fiction, or cult comedy shows, or any other stuff that floats their boat. From a personal point of view I too am nerdy about music, as are lots of my female friends (possibly why they're my friends) so it always surprises me when blokes act surprised that a woman can be 'into' music in the same way that they are. I don't see it as a 'boy' thing, but there again I have met women (and men) who just aren't into music and I confess I tend to regard them as strange and slightly pitiable...

It does annoy me when you get a programme about music and it's wall to wall bloke, either as panellist or talking head. What used to really piss me off was that the only woman pundit who ever seemed to get any air time was that godawful gobshite Emma Jones who talked utter bollocks with that air of authority that only the terminally stupid can achieve. I don't think she did future female music commentators any favours whatsoever.

And now I'm trying to think of a female music journalist other than the terrible Jones person and apart from (briefly) Julie Burchill, I can't - and the only reason I think of them is their annoying gobshiteyness. Whereas I can recall articles by Steve Sutherland, Paul Morley, Ian Penman, David Hepworth, Mark Ellen, Neil Tennant (showing my age now) et al because they made such an impact on me.

As for music marketed at women - I confess with deep shame that I have a cd entitled "Music for Housework" which depicts a woman doing a Pete Townshend type pose using a mop for a guitar, which I bought because it had one track on it I needed for a mix tape I was making (this was before downloads so I had to buy the whole bloody thing). It is a horrible, cringey cover and indeed a bloody awful concept and I hate that I own it.

And... and... (I'm on a roll now, can't sleep!), I hate hate HATE films like Hi-Fidelity that promote the idea that music is a boys-only thing and only blokes will have their top 10 xxx-genre lists, and only blokes will make mix-tapes or like music that isn't 'easy'... grrr....

God, that turned into an essay. This is all because Record Mirror turned me down for a reporter job (despite writing to tell me they liked my turn of phrase) in 1981 - I've obviously been repressing it all these years :o

Tyr, I remember Diamanda Galas - christ, yes, she was scary! But brilliant...

Lovecat,

She's still around, still brilliant and scary. Age hasn't mellowed her- quite the opposite.

Ooh, I must look her up again. I've got Masque of the Red Death on vinyl somewhere in the house... I remember being banished to my room to listen to it on headphones because it was freaking my mother out...

I may be mistaken, but I vaguely remember her and Klaus Nomi (RIP) being around the same time - amazing voices, both of them.