not a nice topic, but been annoying me all day

[ButWhyIsTheGinGone]

Hello All,

I've been dithering whether to post this as it's not really an "issue," and it's not the nicest of subjects, but I've been thinking about it all day.
After reading and watching the fantastic "Girl With the Dragon Tattoo" film, I was talking with a male friend in the pub about the horiffic scene where Lisbeth Salander (possibly my favourite fictional character ever) was attacked and anally raped by her guardian.

This led to a discussion bout how appalling an act that is, at which my friend claimed it would be far "worse for a man." I couldn't quite believe this and he said he couldn't explain it and I "really wouldn't understand." At this point a second man (drunk and not intelligent) pointed out that "women do it all the time." I didn't even acknowledge this fairly disgusting comment and the conversation changed.

But it's been bugging me all day. My friend is a sensible and intelligent man and would never say anything to deliberatly hurt or offend, but this view has shocked me and got me thinking. If a woman who has previously had consensual anal intercourse is attacked in this way....is it less "horiffic" than if a man is similarly attacked who has not?

Would be interested to hear any opinions - I'm no feminist expert but am lurkng around this board a lot more and finding a lot of the discussion really interesting.

'You're dictating that they have no right to feel any worse than any other rape victim'

NO-ONE has said that. In fact people have pointed out that every victim of rape will react in their own way and that the circumstances of the rape are not necessarily linked to the depth of the trauma a victim will experience.

'I've not reduced any rape victims crime to being anything less than horrific.'

No, you've just repeatedly stated that some are 'more horrific' than others. And talked about the abuse of women...

'From the completely extreme cases all the way to the less extreme cases'

And how,

'being raped strangled and left for dead by the side of the road, is a hell of a lot more traumatic than being raped by someone you married.'

Repeatedly ignoring the fact that attemped murder and kidnapping would be additional charges.

You seem obsessed with grading rapes. And suggesting you're defending the victim's right to their 'unique' feelings doesn't stand up when you're talking about how people '(will) feel more horrified by what they read'. Read. You're not talking about the victim at all. You're talking about the public judging the severity of rapes.

And because people are disagreeing with you you're making comments about 'rad fems' and being told to shut up - which you haven't been.

There seems to be an awful lot of confusion here over what is being said.

I am saying that rape is rape. Period.

Different people experience rape in a myriad of different ways, but that doesn't change the fact that rape has a simple definition (which has been given here).

None of us can arbitrate as to how another person feels about the level of trauma, or the different emotions they live with, as a consequence of being penetrated against their will.

This sort of seems to be what you are arguing EP whilst also trying to claim that you are able to define some rapes as worse than others . You are doing exactly the thing you are accusing the rest of us as doing, whilst we are being very careful not to do it .

We are not saying that all rapes are the same - that would be a ridiculous thing to say. We are saying that all rape is defined in the same way in terms of how rapey it is - that definition is, rape. To make any other argument is getting onto very dangerous ground (and very invasive for rape victims).

And there are no radfems telling you or rape victims to shut up.

How dare you.

I would guess that the reporting rates are lower (and the conviction rates) for cases of gay men who knew or were involved with the attacker. That's the way the stats go with the rape of women.

Regarding the OP's question, Maybe your friend meant more from the mental aspect of a man being physically dominated and weaker than the attacker. As women we know that generally men are stronger than women so there is no shame or expectation in us not being able to match or beat a man physically. A woman being anally raped is no less horrific than a man being raped but I wonder if what bothers the man more is that he wasn't strong enough to defend himself but was in fact the weaker of the 2, I think men might inflict the shame upon themselves of being too weak to defend themselves. Not really getting the point across I'm trying to make.

Following this thread this morning has made for some extraordinary reading. I am not sure how anyone reading it can come to the conclusion or remain convinced that rape comes in varying degrees, or that it is a minority, extreme or radical view to shun such value-judgements of one rape being 'worse' than another. After reading garlic's contribution I felt that must be the end of the discussion so was shocked that her experience has been used to back up the opposing argument.

Details can be different, the people it happens to can be different but there is no value in rating these differences. OP, your friend was wrong.

the 77% is for adult male victims - it's lower when they are teenagers - 52% for 13-16 year olds IIRC.

I know a young man who was gang raped age 15 and he has never got over it .But he was telling me that he found that for him was less understanding as people expect for young men to try and fight back .age 18 he went to a centre to talk about it and get some help but was told he could not attend group therapy as the women felt vunerable with a man there

Not helped as his parents refused to talk. About it as seems to be more Blame is attached to it for not fighting back

Sadly my friend has dabbled in drugs for years to forget which ended up with needing sectioning on and of for paranoid and severe depression , and when does not take meds he ends up back in .One day I expect to hear from his sister that he has either. OD though he is clean at yhe moment or more likely committed suicide

But rape is hard to over come be it male of female or a stranger or family or a so called friend .

And lot of the outcome can depend on the support that available at the time and in the long term

That is very very sad, Catapult. In my home city there is an organisation which runs groups for male survivors of abuse and rape, which is clearly needed.

As a possibly irrelevant aside, ironically the charity was set up by a man (not a self-identified abuse/rape survivor) who is now in prison indefinitely for raping and attempting to murder female sex workers

I am sickened, speechless by your friend's attitude!

HumanCatapult, that's sort of the point I was trying to get across. I think a man might struggle just as much with his failure to fight off his attacker and how this makes him look to the wider populace to the actual act of rape itself. Of course women also beat themselves up with feelings of guilt and if they did anything to encourage the rape.

I am finding EP's posts arrogant and entitled that she feels that she can be an arbiter of other people's experiences. As Lenin says why do your feelings matter?

"I've arbitrated that each of them will suffer the effects of their specific crime uniquely" - you certainly didn't start off in that tone. And who are you to be arbiter anyway?

Yeah, I'm struggling to give a shiny shit about how anybody else might feel 'reading' about me being raped. Meh.

Just to stick my two penn'orth in.

HumanCatapult that's terrible for your friend. What a horrific experience for him. Speaking as a victim myself, just being listened to and acknowledged/believed can make a huge difference to how you deal with it and how awful he didn't get that :(

It's a real shame the way this thread has gone.

To go back to what HerBex and Blackcurrants said, I think it's true that rape is regarded as worse for men because it's recognised as what it is; a violation of someone's body whereas for women they should be used it because that's 'just what happens'. And, well, women are a bit less important than men so their siffering doesn't matter so much.

I don't agree with some arbitrary notion of some rapes being worse than others because 'x' person says they are.

And fwiw the betrayal of trust and cruelty involved in an acquaintance/date rape adds an extra level of cruelty. At least (ha) if its a stranger you don't have to deal with them being in your social circle.