not a nice topic, but been annoying me all day

[ButWhyIsTheGinGone]

Hello All,

I've been dithering whether to post this as it's not really an "issue," and it's not the nicest of subjects, but I've been thinking about it all day.
After reading and watching the fantastic "Girl With the Dragon Tattoo" film, I was talking with a male friend in the pub about the horiffic scene where Lisbeth Salander (possibly my favourite fictional character ever) was attacked and anally raped by her guardian.

This led to a discussion bout how appalling an act that is, at which my friend claimed it would be far "worse for a man." I couldn't quite believe this and he said he couldn't explain it and I "really wouldn't understand." At this point a second man (drunk and not intelligent) pointed out that "women do it all the time." I didn't even acknowledge this fairly disgusting comment and the conversation changed.

But it's been bugging me all day. My friend is a sensible and intelligent man and would never say anything to deliberatly hurt or offend, but this view has shocked me and got me thinking. If a woman who has previously had consensual anal intercourse is attacked in this way....is it less "horiffic" than if a man is similarly attacked who has not?

Would be interested to hear any opinions - I'm no feminist expert but am lurkng around this board a lot more and finding a lot of the discussion really interesting.

I linked to some stats on another thread. They were based on interviews done on college campuses in California(?) in the 90s. There were the ususal numbers of unreported rapes . What was interesting was the figures on how many women actually identified what happened to them as rape when it fit the legal definition of rape.

Rape is still seen as being predominately the stranger attacking a lone woman in the street/park/alley. Not only does this mean that women are encouraged to be disproportionately fearful of those situations (walking alone after dark), it also means that women as well as men are reluctant to identify many situations as rape.

It's all those rape myths. Rape doesn't always involve violence, rape doesn't always mean the victim is screaming no etc.

I think the common image of rape also leads to a commonly held image of a rapist. A rapist is a man who lurks in shadows and preys on women. It's not the attractive man in the nice suit. It's not the man that you drink with in the pub or the bloke you sit near at the football. That must make rape convictions a lot more difficult.

Why did you not clarify that the EP, rather than suggesting the other elements of the definition were at fault? Why would you want to do that?

You're obviously very concerned about rape, so why don't you use that concern by reading up on what is said by the experts who have taken a lead from actual rape victims and listened to their voices. It seems to me that this would be much better use for your concern. Rather than telling rape victims they are wrong. You wouldn't want that concern to inadvertently cause problems, would you.

Yes, well done. Now, back to the "It's worse for men, virgins and one-man women and doesn't matter so much if you've put it about a bit or if your husband normally brings you a cup of tea in the morning".

And Mal, I can see where you're coming from on the personal experiences and fears thing. I think we all have thoughts and fears about crimes based on our own personal experiences and ideas of what things might be like. The problem comes with extending this speculation to then making judgments about others, and their experiences. It's much more complex than that.

But the burglars that battered the householders committed 2 crimes.

FFS

Eastern Phoebe would you accept that being silenced by the meany radfems is 'less bad' than having your rl trauma triggered by insensitive posts which seek to take ownership of your experiences and tell you what you should feel.

Where does that fit in your hierarchy? I'd say it's 'less bad' and I shall judge you accordingly for throwing your rattle out of the pram for being disagreed with.

Don't sully the argument with facts Aye. It's already been pointed out that additional factors lead to additional charges.

In the interests of education

I knew a young man who was raped, and before he admitted that he was raped he would clarify to everyone he was not gay, my exh said to him eventually "what the hell mate! we know your not gay, why are you getting so upset about it?" it was then he told us what happened, he was terrified that we would think he was gay, and we had to explain to him that this guy that had done this to him was a twisted freak and that rape wasn't sex, rape is an act of extreme violence and rape is just as bad as murder and paedophilia and this needs to be reported. I don't think he managed to report it but he did tell his family and close friends.

Phoebe, it's not like that. One crime is burglary; the other is burglary AND murder. Nobody would call the second example 'a burglary'.

Sticking with the less-emotive comparison, a simple burglar may leave me with few ongoing repercussions but leave my neighbour suffering severe trauma. It would be right to have more sympathy for the neighbour, even though the crime was the same. Similarly, rape can leave victims with long-term psychological damage. And physical damage. The same act of rape can impact differently on two different victims - it doesn't mean one rape was less of a crime than the other, any more than my burglary was.

Forbidden? Where did that happen?

You know, our own body is really the only thing we own. So when anyone suggests that I might somehow have less right to that ownership than anyone else, because I've had more sexual partners, or because I'm a woman, or because I'm used to being penetrated, or what ever other ridiculous 'but' they can come up with, I feel a bit stabby. Consent or lack of consent means it's not rape or rape. That is the only degree worth noting. And these suggested 'degrees' of rape only serve to tell rape victims that they shouldn't be that traumatised, after all it was your husband/partner not some stranger. So be a good girl and get over it

No, EP. I am saying that legally, rape is a very specific (and not very complicated) crime. I can recognise that the circumstances can have a different impact on different victims. I would not begin to put the effects into some kind of hierarchy because it's not my place to assess. The psychological impact of a non-physically injurious act of rape can be equally debilitating as a violent assault,

I just think it is vitally important that non-consensual penetration with a penis is seen as rape, regardless of who does it and to whom and in what manner. Additional factors are dealt with in sentencing and charging with other crimes, not in conviction of rape,

I also know of a woman who was raped by a man she was seeing at the time he drugged her and did what he wanted with her. She only realised this had happened to her because of the level of damage he had done to her and she needed to go to the doctors about it, the doctor had informed her that no one would have been able to withstand the amount of pain caused by these injuries and asked her how it happened. She didn't know. Does that make it any worse or better than the lad I was talking about earlier? No, because they both are still dealing with the after effects of what happened to them. It is still horrific for both men and women to have to deal with it, it takes a twisted freak to do this kind of thing to any human being.

Can anyone remember that god awful politician who said that a woman raped by a date rape drug wasn't as serious as that of a woman raped in a park? How I'd like him to see this thread now.

Was it Ken Clark?