In light of MNHQ's recent statement that the feminism section is in fact not a feminism section but a section 'about' feminism, perhaps we need to be warning people about this up front?

[Beachcomber]

I'm of the opinion that it needs to made clear that whilst the title may be 'feminism/women's rights', this section is quite different to other boards that deal with feminism/women's rights.

It isn't fair to mislead - lots of posters expect the section to be a place where feminist views can be freely explored without fear of posters' mental health being questioned, and a zone where misogyny is unwelcome. In reality, pretty much anything goes here and whilst it is, of course, MNHQ's prerogative to run their site as they see fit, some sort of disclaimer about the section seems only fair in order to forewarn posters (especially posters looking for support or exploration of sensitive issues).

Perhaps it would be an idea for there to be a header at the top of the section stating MNHQ's position?

All suggestions welcomed .

[MarginallyNarkyPuffin]

we do ask you to post respectfully - or, if you can't, just to ignore those you can't post respectful replies to

Actually ScottishMummy I think MN will be fine about any 'concerted action' that involves ignoring posters who are derailing or trolling. As I find those posters hard to reply to respectfully.

Or do you think people would run to HQ to say, 'They won't talk to me [sad'

From now on I just won't respond to trolls or derailers.

Simple and elegant.

[ThereBeBolloX]

I don't know what you mean by slippage LW, could you explain more.

It's difficult to discuss this without getting personal. But there are some posters who can't resist cming here because they obviously have personal issues or a political agenda which is anti feminist. We are called hysterical and unreasonable and all the rest of it, even when we link to their facebook pages and YouTube videos where some of us have been quoted. And still they come, and still we recognise them and still they're tolerated and the fact that FFS if you are a new poster and you get deleted 19 times in 20 days, that's not considered at all unusual or suspicious or evidence that you are not of goodwill.

It's beyond ridiculous.

And Cote yes I have considered that and it's not my problem. What are you saying, we should be less "out there"? What does that mean? We should stop posting the things we want to explore? We should stop stripping the onion rings away and stop probing?

If people don't want to join in with the probing, if they think that's too far for them, that is their choice and I don't condemn them for it and don't think any the worse of them for it. All I ask, is that I be allowed to be as "out there" as I want and to discuss things with other people whoa re interested in being out there for a while with me. I personally can't be arsed with some of the measures people in the eco living section go in for - but for chrissakes, I wouldn't go into that section, tell them they're all mad extremists who should just shower bleach around their kitchens and stop being so bloody anal about recycling, because that would be disruptive, unsupportive and downright bloody unpleasant of me, wouldn't it? And why would I want to do that? But people do that all the time around here and then tell us we're nasty for eventually expressing the disgust we feel about their appalling behaviour.

[LindsayWagner]

Snigger at x-post w giyadas.
Hey Catitainahatita - I'm sorry if you (and prob lots of others)feel personally crit'd. My first post responds to the snapshots I've taken, dipping in and out over the yr or so it took from the idea to now.
FWIW I think if you turn it around and aim the disclaimer at disrupters as you suggest, that might be better:
"Feminism is a movement which critiques sexism and misogyny. Please be aware that comments may be criticised from that perspective - these comments do not contravene MN Talk guidelines per se"

[DontCallMeFrothyDragon]

cough

How about "Misogyny will not be tolerated"?

I believe it was dittany (but may be wrong) that pointed out that, as an oppressed gender, women can't be guilty of sexism against men, just prejudice... I think the link she gave stated something like Sexism = Power + Sexual Prejudice

But then at the same time, every time a "why are men so crap at..." post is posted, it kinda undoes a bit of feminism, IMO. There's a difference between moaning about your DP doing something wrong, and everyone of the same gender doing it wrong. And unfortunately, misogyny and misandry are not global opposites. When women post on MN, saying all men are shit at housework, they're reinforcing the belief that it's "wifework", and it's up to us to teach them, or keep them out of the kitchen.

[LindsayWagner]

ThereBeBolloX
I mean that, from the outside, some of the posters whom FeMNers have been calling troll just look like the usual anti-fem cunts to me. It's not possible to illegalise them, they have to be dealt with here as in the wider world.
Trolls, imo, = creating shit, any shit, no politics at all, just want to see the board in meltdown.

[HelenMumsnet]

@ThereBeBolloX

I don't know what you mean by slippage LW, could you explain more.

It's difficult to discuss this without getting personal. But there are some posters who can't resist cming here because they obviously have personal issues or a political agenda which is anti feminist. We are called hysterical and unreasonable and all the rest of it, even when we link to their facebook pages and YouTube videos where some of us have been quoted. And still they come, and still we recognise them and still they're tolerated and the fact that FFS if you are a new poster and you get deleted 19 times in 20 days, that's not considered at all unusual or suspicious or evidence that you are not of goodwill.

Let's be quite clear here: no, they're not tolerated. If we can make the link between a poster posting here and someone quoting your posts in an offensive/misogynist/MRA way on Facebook/You Tube/wherever, we would - and have - ban them.

Similarly if someone is deleted 19 times in one day (20 days sounds not all that bad, actually ), they would be considered suspicious and they would get a mail from us at MNHQ.

[MarginallyNarkyPuffin]

But we now have a MN statement to back up our ignoring.

Maybe we should get it laminated...

[LRDTheFeministDragon]

I'm late back, but thanks so much helen, for replying.

We're not mind readers - it is great knowing you are working on it because unless you tell us, we don't know. And I honestly thought you were trying to hint more and more obviously that you really wanted us to stop posting and take ourselves off. I'm glad that's not the case.

[HelenMumsnet]

@StewieGriffinsMom

Helen, I've had very few posts deleted for crossing MNHQ Talk Guidelines. I've been very careful [except for one small outburst on a disabilist thread] to keep within the guidelines but it is very hard when all we get back is "you need to be nice." I have been nice, and I have reported and I have ignored but the ignoring doesn't seem to work because when we ignore we get recriminated for ignoring.

Totally understand, Stewie. The "rise above" option is a frustrating path to follow. But we're pretty sure it works the best.

Think of it like dealing with a toddler tantrum. The louder they scream, the more you ignore. In the end (and, yes, some tantrums are interminable) the toddler realises tantrums are no fun/get nowhere without an audience.

[LindsayWagner]

IMO there's a trade-off.
Open board = astonishing google rank, massive accidental eyeballs on active convos, you have to deal with arseholes and try and develop a board-wide strategy for same which is how politics goes.
Closed board = all lovely, you are as cloistered as women were in middle ages, three people are reading.

[HelenMumsnet]

@StewieGriffinsMom

Helen On another thread recently, someone asked about copyright and the reproduction of MN threads on other sites and whether or not it infringed on the copyright. Have MNHQ looked into this? is it plausible for dealing with some of the more offensive and vile stalker sites?

Tbh, I don't know, SGM. We have trying to follow our own advice and rise above.

[LRDTheFeministDragon]

Helen, sorry if I'm not making sense here. But we're not all the same person - how do we ignore someone collectively? It's like trying to have a 'hide poster' button half of us know about and half don't - chaos. Obviously we can ignore posters who just post the same thing over and over without engaging, but most derailers get more involved than that. And often it only becomes clear to posters that they are derailers/trolls midway through a thread that has already become very upsetting and/or sensitive.

[forkful]

Helen - this site may be of use to you when considering the wording re sexist remarks.

[HelenMumsnet]

@LRDTheFeministDragon

I'm late back, but thanks so much helen, for replying.

We're not mind readers - it is great knowing you are working on it because unless you tell us, we don't know. And I honestly thought you were trying to hint more and more obviously that you really wanted us to stop posting and take ourselves off. I'm glad that's not the case.

We're always working on it, LRD. Really. Even when it doesn't look like we are.

And please don't take yourselves off.

[LRDTheFeministDragon]

Crikey, that sounds a bit rude!

[HelenMumsnet]

Right, I have to stop posting or my husband will have no clean socks tomorrow

Night all.

[Tortington]

could i have a definitive answer to the question 'do you have to label yourself as a feminist to post in this section?' please helenmumsnet? you mention a feminist scale -a spectrum in your initial post. but nothing about this.

[MarginallyNarkyPuffin]

All these MNHQ posts are destroying the mystique.

Don't you have people to do that for you Helen?

[edd1337]

why label yourself a feminist to post in an open forum? I'm no feminist but I agree with lots of feminist ideals which is why I post here. I disagree too however

[DontCallMeFrothyDragon]