The effect of having children on a woman's career

[MediumOrchid]

Can you help me get my head around this issue please? Had an argument discussion with my dh about this and am now confused and need to solidify what I think.

Imagine a woman has a career with good prospects, then leaves to have children. She has 3 children reasonably close together, breastfeeds them and takes the best part of a year off for each, with ~ a year working part time in between. Is it reasonable to expect that this time not working will have a detrimental effect on her career, and therefore she will never reach the top of her company like she would have if she hadn't had children, or is this unfair? If it is unfair, what could be done to make it fairer, bearing in mind she wanted to breastfeed her children and wanted to spend the majority of each child's first year with them?

This is a hypothetical women btw as I don't have children yet.

After dc1, I realised that actually there are some people in the office who are basically saboteurs, coming to see me at the end of the day just as computer is switched on and coat on for a "quick word". I agree, I make it clear to all and sundry that I am not missing bedtime so I am not missing my train and I can deal with anything after they are in bed asleep. Some people haven't got the message initially and I have literally walked out on people mid sentence and said call me on the train. This seems to deal with 99% of the "urgent" enquiries as they rarely call. I agree with the points on efficiency, I got my PA to set all internal meetings by default to 30 mins and to ensure that they were followed by external meetings so they couldn't outstay their time. It's amazing how people can say what they have to say given half the time and reach conclusions quickly. In hindsight, I could shed tears over how inefficient I was pre-children and how much time I wasted in the office!

Totally agree on efficiency. But it's being present that counts. At least in academia no-one really knows what you're up do. Seminars, conferences, lectures, library visits, meetings with colleagues, working at home - as long as you keep answering e-mail you're 'present'.

This issue has been at the forefront of my mind since I went back to work after having my DS. It has become apparent to me how women are, directly, but more often indirectly and insiduously discriminated against for having children.

I'm unusual - I've done bloody well for myself since becoming a mother. I returned from maternity to a new, better job and was promoted again within 3 months. There are reasons I can do this though, and any one of them not being in place would leave me without a career.

Firstly, I have a DH who is happy to do 'wifework'. Today, for example, I left the house at 7am. DH took DS to nursery. He went to work. He picked DS up, came home, cooked tea for them both, played with DS, bathed him and put him to bed. He then washed up. I fell through the door at 8pm. A cup of tea was immediately forthcoming. DH would have left work if nursery had phoned to say DS was sick or anything like that.

This isn't a typical day - the 7am start is but I had an evening meeting (have a couple a month) today hence the 8pm hometime. Usually home by 5.30 having picked DS up myself. DH still cooks though.

Secondly, I work full time. Over 4 days, but a full time week and often more. I start at 7.45 most mornings, finish at 4.30 then come home and do another couple of hours. I couldn't fit my job into less. In fact, I used to be on a 30 hour contract and work upped it because it was clear I was doing full time hours and just wasn't being paid for it.

Thirdly, I have an understanding boss. He is happy for me to work flexibly over 4 days, with evening and weekend working. He knows I will make the hours up if DS is ill and so hasn't got arsey about the couple of occasions I have had to drop everything and drive home. He knows the benefits of having me in post outweigh the disadvantages of me having childcare commitments. He has no children himself but has seen the disintegration of his brother's marriage due to career / childcare issues.

But, this is it for me. The next step up on the career ladder involves lots of evening meetings - probably twice weekly, if not more. I would miss dinner and bedtime too often and I just couldn't do it. Neither could I ask DH to sort out dinner and bed on his own so often - I wouldn't want him to take on a job with that level of commitment which would leave me on my own so much.

Most men wouldn't think twice about it.

I am about to start a new job after a year's maternity leave. My previous job involved long hours, and a boss who was unsupportive of pregnant women/working mothers. Throughout the latter stages of my pregnancy (throughout the whole of which I had - I think - only one sick day), he constantly referred to me in front of senior colleagues as being 'in a delicate condition' and said in a meeting that my maternity cover was 'a man who won't go off and get pregnant' - how I laughed when said man quit after two weeks because he couldn't handle the workload ...

DH and I earn about the same and he is a very hands-on dad, so we decided that we'd both reduce our working hours to spend more time with DS (12 mo). This involves both of us being almost full-time, but DS will spend a day a week with one of us and the rest of the time at childcare. My old boss agreed, under much duress, to let me reduce my office hours by 10% - with the corresponding drop in salary - with the clear implication that I would have to fit these hours in somewhere because my days off would not be covered. (Same job at 90% pay, basically )

While I was going through the flexible working meetings etc, a job came up in a company I've long admired. The position was a step up from what I was doing before. I applied on impulse and was offered the job. My new employer is matching the flexible working arrangement I'd negotiated with my old boss, but will cover me on my days off, and they are strongly in favour of work-life balance for all employees, not just parents - the offices are mostly empty by 6pm.

I was completely open with them about being a new mother and it didn't seem to put them off (ninety people applied for this job). When I was offered it, they told me to let them know if I needed anything with regards to my baby - eg a private room in which to express milk. I was stunned and delighted at this.

I'm aware I have been incredibly jammy fortunate with how things have turned out. I've essentially walked into a better job after mat leave and am sharing responsibility and payment for childcare with a supportive DH. I know many employers wouldn't touch a new mother with a barge pole. It could all go horribly wrong of course, like any new job can, but I feel very positively towards them for giving me the chance. (I am aware that I shouldn't have to feel 'grateful' but I do think they are behaving differently to many other employers, and should be applauded for that.)

Just wanted to throw a (so far) positive story into the pot.

In my academic carreer I encountered a panel of men who told me they were very understanding of my 'personal problems' when I requested part time working.

I told them I did not regard my dcs as problems, and inquired how many 'problem' they had themselves.

Reader, I chucked my career.

Just read Ilanthe's post and seen a few parallels. My DH is also happy to do 'wifework' - he does the morning routine and CM drop-off with DS, and cooks dinner while I feed DS to sleep put DS to bed. He is awesome.

originalposter - sorry for your experience but laughed out loud at your post

The one thing that does drive me mad though, is that, despite DH's name and phone number being at the top of the contact form, a note on said form saying phone DH first as he is much closer, and him doing more drops and pick ups than me, nursery always, always, always phone me if there is an issue with DS. Every single bloody time.

I don't want to challenge them on it as I feel it would make me come across as not giving a shit about my child being ill, when of course I do. I also give a feminist shit, however, that it is the default position, even when all evidence is pointing to the contrary in front of their very eyes, that an ill child is the mother's responsibility, not the father's.

Brawhen

When I told same group that I would need time off because I was expecting, I had to explain that I was expecting... A Baby. No congrats were offered obv.

They also wondered when I left how I would get back into my profession after having dcs. I said that would depend on whether they would discard a cv from someone who had been out for 6 years having 4 dcs.

Or course, Xenia would say, stop bleating, you only need 8 weeks off in total for 4 dcs...

Btw Are you bra hen or braw hen like in Glasgow?

I also have a semi positive story, I was promoted at 7.5 mo pregnant, but didn't start the new job until I went back. Admittedly I went back early (ds was 4.5 mo old) but he goes to nursery 3 days a week, my mum has him one day, I work Saturday's, so have a day off in the week and dh has him also.

Dh works long hours, but does 6-4pm so does most nursery pick ups and dinners, I do mornings and drop offs. Everything else is prettyuch split 50-50 inc covering ds being sick. Dh will also take hol days to cover me going away for work etc.

I recently resigned my job to go part time in a non managerial role, nursery costs would go down pro rata to my salary (ds is now 2 and loads of fun!), however I have been persuaded to stay in my current role, but part time - and I think this is the first in the arm of the company I work for. I can return full time basically whenever I want.

I think it is very difficult not to lose ground when you are off for mat leave, and I have felt that I really have to 'split' myself so I am only mum at home, and I am only manager at work. This is hard as is some way my work has to be as important as my son (I don't actually think this btw!)

Sometimes I think it as silly as to how enlightened the person is above you.

Banana - yes, my DH is brilliant too. I couldn't do it without him.

But if the roles were reversed, the woman wouldn't be considered as awesome for doing all that. It would just be considered completely normal. In fact, the fact that your DH did the putting to bed (in the reverse situation) would be considered awesome.

The strength of my feminist feeling is the one thing that took me completely by surprise after I had DS. It all suddenly clicked into place - the sheer unfairness of the fact my life had been mixed up and chucked everywhere and DH just sauntered back to work and hobbies after two weeks like nothing had changed...

No it is not reasonable. Just as it is unreasonable that having studied for 8 years over my career to get to senior management level in teaching, if I take 3 or 4 years out with my twins I will be virtually unemployable. Too many qualifications with little uptodate knowledge. I asked if I could pay the local LEA to attend training in my area but even though they have funded me for the last 3 years for ongoing professional development, this is apparently a no go as I will not be affiliated to a setting. Grrrrr
I would be intrigued to see a man refused the opportunity to keep his skills up to date during a sabbatical from work.

It is ridiculous Dnomaid. A friend of mine who was a nurse with 20 years experience had a very similar dilemma.
The stupid thing is, although some things would have changed in the time she was out, as a proportion of the stuff she knows it would be very small indeed and it should be utterly viable to catch up in a short time. But she would have had to retrain for 6 months if she took 2 years out (iirc) and start again at a low level. Medical science isn't advancing that fast ffs.

I have heard it said this is a much bigger problem in teaching than it used to be because things used to mostly stay the same but these days there are constant initiatives to catch up with.

My dh does his fair share but I don't see it as being awesome, because that's what I would expect. Who else is going to do it? I realise when I read some of the stories here everyday that yes he is awesome in this respect (he is anyway!) but as you say no one says I am awesome for doing what I do, so my mindset is "why should he get any higher plaudits than me?". My dm frequently says how great dh is because of how much he does around the home, but I say to her, well firstly it is home too, I expect him to take more than a passing interest in keeping it clean, second, he was fully present at the conception so I damn well expect him to be fully present in the child raising. The more that we talk about men "helping" or praising them for being so helpful around the home, or doing their fair share, the more we make it clear to men that somehow we have lower expectations of them and we are willing to take on more than 50% of the home running and child raising.

You are all right of course - I guess I think of DH as 'awesome' for what he does for the same reason I'm grateful to my new employer for hiring me despite being a mother - because, rightly or wrongly, he is a rarity in the world we live in. He is the only dad in our NCT group who has altered his working hours to enable us to share care of DS, for example. He also does far more cleaning than I do. (I hate cleaning and am shit at it.) I am better at food shopping, meal planning, etc.

In turn, he does regularly tell me I am awesome for breastfeeding, for getting up at night with DS, who is a crap sleeper (DH gets up with him too, but often only a boob will do), etc.

I feel that, out of our social group of parents, our arrangement is the most 'equal', both in terms of work, babycare and household duties.

dont take protracted period off work.stop obsessing about bf and its potential impact,do talk pre-dc what your expectations of partner are and be claer about demarcation of tasks.dont sleep walk into a baby on your boob fr years as excuse why you maybe dont have career

In answer to OP's questions.

1. Would it be unfair?

I think it would be utterly unfair that taking 3 years off to have 3 kids + a couple of years of part-time working might stop a woman getting to the top if she was otherwise destined for that position. It is reasonable for the "clock to be stopped" while she's on leave, but unreasonable to expect time to tick slower (or faster) once she returns.

1. What can be done to make it fairer?

For a start, I think the breastfeeding thing is something of a red herring. Whether you bf or ff, babies still wake in the night and deprive you of sleep! And it's very possible to work (or MN) at your laptop with a baby on the breast. You can still breastfeed if you're back at work, as long as you return once you have a well-established supply (ie when baby is a few months old). You can express during the working day if you want to, or not if you don't want to (many women continue to feed babies and toddlers morning and/or evening for yeeeeears of working full time). If your baby is being cared for near your workplace you may be able to breastfeed in your lunch hour. There is lots of advice on MN about this sort of thing - forgive me if you know this already.

To make it easier, two sorts of things could I suppose change.

Personal strategies: finding a sympathetic DH/DP, sympathetic employer and sympathetic boss; sympathetic mentor; work for a larger organisation or one that can better cope with pregnancy and part-time working; make sure you "keep in touch" with work and do as much as you can to maintain your professional skills and confidence while you are off; have an excellent "support network" e.g. family who will help with childcare regularly, and friends you can talk to in confidence; avoid a too-long commute. Some of these will hopefully help you survive in a not particularly mother-friendly working world. Finally you just have to be bloody lucky - and you have to make your own luck where you can.

Social changes: attitudes need to change across the whole of society! Hiring and promotion should be gender blind just as they should be colour blind. Any suggestion of discrimination against mothers needs to be completely unacceptable socially. There needs to be a recognition that childcare and housework needs to be taken on by fathers just as much as by mothers. There should be an expectation that work can be family friendly. Free workplace nurseries with out of hours cover. Free after school clubs for school-age kids. And so on...

But the personal strategies don't make it fairer. They only make it a bit easier to live in an unfair world. The social changes would make the world fairer. If we get enough social change, then one day people like the OP won't have to ask the impossible of themselves, any more than men currently do when they decide to start a family.

Great thread! I am agreeing ferociously with almost everyone - about the need for changes at work, and at home. There's lots more to be done so that parenthood doesn't have such a divergent impact on men and women.

But I can't help wondering if there is a limiting factor. If men knew that having children would mean changing everything about their life and putting career ambition onto the back burner for years, would they just choose not to have them, or at least to 'put it off a few more years'.

...sorry, depressing thought!

I'm not sure - I think it is changing already. DH does 50% care, sick days etc and his male boss has just dropped to 4 days / week after the birth of his first child. A man in my department has recently taken extended parental leave too.

We are all in teh public sector though - probably v different in the private sector?

Ilanthe said: "Neither could I ask DH to sort out dinner and bed on his own so often - I wouldn't want him to take on a job with that level of commitment which would leave me on my own so much. Most men wouldn't think twice about it."

I think this is pretty key - and goes back to Xenia's usual point. There is an extent to which we do this to ourselves. BUT the consequences of doing it are MUCH higher than they should be for societal reasons. As everyone says, it's reasonable that your career stalls while you're not actually going it, as long as it resumes its previous trajectory when you're back in work. The problem is in the 'resuming trajectory' part. When women go back, they often refuse to take so many evening meetings/so many early starts/so many last notice shift changes/whatever. Some of this is down to personal choice. Some of it is down to societal pressure - a mother is seen as more responsible than a father (see Ilanthe's nursery phoning her for sick kids). Some of it is down to misogynistic workplace organisation - WHY are evening meetings necessary? Is there a better way of organising this stuff?

I feel manipulated because I rearranged my career to be more family friendly. I still love my career, but I would be in a different one if I didn't have kids. I didn't want to ask DH to rearrange HIS career to be more family friendly. Part of this is because I knew I would be happier with the change than me (i.e. I had a Plan B in mind, and he didn't) but I feel manipulated (somehow, by something) into not asking, just like Ilanthe doesn't want to ask her DH to take on evenings. For his part, DH is very good at consulting me about his necessary business travel to make sure he doesn't mess with my work, but it's the situation that seems unfair, not the specifics.

bigkids I think it is changing. Faster in some sectors than others, of course. Also, what we observe (because of who we are) is generally men with highly educated partners. This change applies mostly at the top of the educational heap, is my guess.

originalposter I recently namechanged and was intented to be a scottish braw hen. This is first time I have realised it's also bra when