The effect of having children on a woman's career

[MediumOrchid]

Can you help me get my head around this issue please? Had an argument discussion with my dh about this and am now confused and need to solidify what I think.

Imagine a woman has a career with good prospects, then leaves to have children. She has 3 children reasonably close together, breastfeeds them and takes the best part of a year off for each, with ~ a year working part time in between. Is it reasonable to expect that this time not working will have a detrimental effect on her career, and therefore she will never reach the top of her company like she would have if she hadn't had children, or is this unfair? If it is unfair, what could be done to make it fairer, bearing in mind she wanted to breastfeed her children and wanted to spend the majority of each child's first year with them?

This is a hypothetical women btw as I don't have children yet.

Personally, my career has not been impacted too badly by having 2 years out because i have a good headline employer to cover it and I also have a wife - my mum lives with me and DH, she works full time but tends to start and finish early so can be there for childcare catastrophes etc.

I had the 'make partner before having children' advice as well and also ignored it! but in my last firm the number of women making partner suspiciously dropped dramatically after 3 or 4 made partner and immediately went on maternity leave.

Personally, I think the only solution is to increase the level of responsibility on men to step up and deal with random days holiday / children's illnesses etc. I also find it deeply irritating that so many companies rate presenteeism above actual work delivered.

While I was on ML, there was a hoohah about women, work and suchlike and I was so mad I wrote to a newspaper about my experiences. And got the prime letter spot . I still stand by what I said, which is that a lot of the negative attitude I got re: returning to work was not from men, it was from women, who seemed to expect that I would be going back part-time. I was criticised for going back to work full-time after a few months, and the fact I loved (and still do) my job, which is more of a vocation, and liked being financially independent simply didn't wash; the only reason for going back that it seemed acceptable was that DH didn't at the time have a job (and didn't have for the first 3 years!) and I was the breadwinner.

In comparison work (healthcare charity) were all too happy to have me back (admittedly nobody had covered me during ML), have cut me considerable slack about working hours, and know that if something urgent does come up, then emails will get answered from home if I'm not around at work. I'm still on the same grade I would have been otherwise, the chap with the parallel job is on the same grade too, and here I am typing at the end of lunch.

I realise reading this thread how lucky I am, though if I'd have perceived unfairness I'd have come out guns blazing. It's bad enough that women are put down at every opportunity and have less self-confidence in general, without feeling that they should be the ones giving up everything. I would have liked DH to have done childcare but, reasonably, he had to be available to start at any moment once a temp contract came up, and he had to spend all his time sifting through job adverts. Not conducive to childcare, which is another thing women find hard. How do you get a job again after a prolonged absence, without having backup while you hunt?

I take my hat off to anyone who is a single parent.

oops, sorry, got a bit carried away there. Inequality is the one thing guaranteed to get me hopping, no matter what the source!

I think sadly the "make partner before children" is still sound advice because its almost impossible to do it afterwards for the many reasons mentioned. I read a few years ago that Fiona Shackleton always insisted on getting home to have dinner with her kids and would work afterwards. You can do that as a partner but try it before then and people think you're not pulling your weight. I am not sure whether the right thing to do is pass on that informal advice to other women. Pragmatic? Yes, but it still leaves me uneasy.

To me the key as to whether a career is impacted is comes down to what compromises dh is willing to make to his career, how entitled the woman is to have a career afterwards, how much dh values your career, whether dh is willing to do his full share of the parenting (there is a big difference between "helping" every once in a while and doing 50/50 and how much of the time and energy zappers such as cleaning/ironing/cooking etc you are able to outsource.

I'm thinking about Dozer's (and others') earlier posts about how women end up SAH for financial reasons. There IS a pay gap between men and women (for all sorts of reasons) and women are more likely to be earning less when children arrive. My DP completely agrees with me that my career is an investment in our future and that the fact that we only break even with childcare costs is a non-issue, because it's only temporary. I know this isn't the case for everyone, though, and that many people won't even break even and so genuinely can't afford to continue in work. I think we need to address the paygap.

Having said that... DH and I were on equal pay before we decided to have kids, and STILL it was me who changed my worklife to make it work. I wept buckets in the run up to deciding to have kids because I couldn't think of a way of having kids and keeping my career. I was commuting for three hours a day and working long hours: not a family friendly job and not what I wanted for a child. I changed career and now earn peanuts (but will earn a decent salary once I have finished training). I cried because I hated myself, thought I was letting down the sisterhood, felt boxed in by 'the system'. Still angry with the world but have forgiven myself a bit. This Peggy Seeger song makes me cry: That version has her brother singing it, but it's the expression of the woman in the audience at 3:51 that just kills me. It's a great song - just need to be able to sing it to DD withought welling up!

When it is the woman that compromises on her career, I see that as a decision that's made on an individual basis either voluntarily (because she wants to sah) or somewhat involuntarily because dh/dp is unwilling to make compromises with their career. I am really pleased that people on MN make the point time and time again that the childcare costs don't come out of the woman's salary alone. I see the role of feminisim to teach every woman that the default position shouldn't be that they give up their career.

Xenia frequently says that she only took 2 weeks maternity leave (which is the minimum stipulated by law). While that is not my bag at all, there is a part of me that says okay, so if we each took 2 weeks then what would it take to make it work (because everything above that is a choice) and I come back to 1. a dh that's willing to make compromises to their career and 2. affordable and flexible childcare. On this basis I think it is up to each of us to ensure we get equality in our homes and teach our sons and daughters about equality, especially teaching our daughters about expectation. Equally, I think affordable and flexible childcare - e.g. why I have to pay my nanny's gross pay out of my net salary makes no sense, why is nursery funding only available from age 3 and why is there no state funding for after school clubs - are issues that we should continue to badger the government. It seems to me that we more frequently talk about what the government/society/employers can do but there is little acknowledgement that we as women also need to take action in the home.

That probably makes no sense to anyone at all so shal stop now!!

great song though.

In general I agree with what novice says above - but what verysmellyeli says also resonates.

You should not be discriminated against because you are a woman, but we also have to recognise that pregnancy, childbirth and post-natal mothering, and then any-gender parenting are not trivial things that can be 'fitted in' - they take time, mental, emotional & physical effort.

In my case (see above) I was lucky to be encouraged and supported through education, career choice, career building etc - but if anything my expectations were unrealistically high. Physical impact of pregnancy would not have given me a 2 week choice - and I'd say that's quite common. I had to realise that I could not have/do everything. If our arrangement had been full-time support DH I could have done much more, but I reckon I would have had 2 x pregnancy performance-compromised years plus 2 x recovery compromised years. I know many women have very healthy / easy pregnancies and good post-birth recoveries, but many do not.

Not sure if I'm really saying what I want to say here!

Novice, I mostly agree with your post but the last line 'It seems to me that we more frequently talk about what the government/society/employers can do but there is little acknowledgement that we as women also need to take action in the home' sounds a bit like it all comes back to being women's fault because they are not firm enough with their dps.
Action needs to be taken in the home, I agree, but it is not just women who need to be taking it....

Brawhen -
'You should not be discriminated against because you are a woman, but we also have to recognise that pregnancy, childbirth and post-natal mothering, and then any-gender parenting are not trivial things that can be 'fitted in' - they take time, mental, emotional & physical effort.'
exactly.
I felt caught in the middle when I was pregnant - doctors assuming I could just rest as much as I wanted but not willing to sign me off for months because I was pregnant not sick, and work expecting full productivity. I tried to get a doctor's note explaining I may not be performing at my best but the doctor didn't get it - she said those notes were normally for people with manual jobs and she didn't understand which bit of lecturing I wasn't physically capable of doing.
Then when you're back at work but have a baby, feeling like you're letting everyone down (and being penalised for it) because you've been awake half the night and aren't performing at peak. I remember teaching on 2 hours sleep or less, it was not fun. The students even complained once because my mind went blank on a really basic issue one day and they said they thought I didn't know what I was talking about. I had taught that course with excellent feedback for over 5 years.
The whole thing was a bit of a nightmare, looking back on it. And now I have no career. Ho hum.

It has worked out very well for dh, of course, as he now has little wifey at home so he doesn't have to worry about childcare. His career has really taken off since I became a SAHM.

(actually I was sick not just pregnant, but it was HG and I was responding to the drugs so didn't need hospital, and HG is never taken very seriously at the best of times).

SurprisEs I'm shocked about how you were treated but again, not suprised. I'm having pregnancy-related disputes with my employer right now.
Can I ask how long you had been working for that person? Was it less than a year or how did he manage to just fire you?

It should be, as others have said, that the woman would go back and could reach the top three years later. But I wonder if this would ever happen? In my field (academic science) there is ferocious competition for funding, and cut offs for funding are 6 years' post PhD, and more than 6 years. (I hope htis makes sense).

So, if you are more than 6 years post PhD, you are competing with top professors. This means that if you are about 32 / 33 and have not got your own funding stream, you are pretty much on teh scrapheap. You can never catch up because you didn't get the early funding, so you will never be able to publish lots to compete with the profs and get the later, big funding. So you are destined never to get your own lab but to be working in someone elses, forever.

So say 3 years materbnity? You would be finished. Really. The only options are have children early after your PhD and have max 6 months off, like I did, or have them once making prof. But then you will be 40ish and dicing with fertility.

It's really tricky.

Incidentlaly I serve on the Athena SWAN committee at my place, which looks at equal opportunities for women in science and engineering departments. It's great, and to get an award you have to show actual practical things you are doing to encourage women in their careers. And now a major funder (NIHR) has announced they're only giving money to universities in the scheme. Hurray!

bigkids that's interesting. And I know there are a bunch of academics here (on this thread and in general). I'm having kids in the midst of my PhD almost precisely because of the issues you raise. (Also I'm 35, but still...) My area (social science) is a little different - the route is still via fellowships, lectureships et al, so there is a chance to sneak onto the ladder a wee bit later. Actually, I worry about what I'm doing now. To stand the best chance I should be taking on stacks of teaching as well as publishing. I'mmostly ignoring the former because I'm pregnant with a toddler and can't do everything, but I'm sure eyebrows will be raised. What am I saying? Oh yes. There's no 'right time' - and part of that is the total lack of workplace acceptance of maternity/paternity/parenting.

I work in a woman friendly profession (teaching) and although my career progression is delayed owing to the 5 years I took out, it was a sort of suspended animation. I don't think my progression subsequent to returning has been slowed. And that seems reasonable to me.

My SIL has decided not to have children for all of the reasons bigkidsdidit talks about - she is an academic and says she cannot afford to take the time out that having children would entail. She is in computer science where she says you are 'on the scrapheap at 35'. I don't know what to think about the whole thing and am sad for my brother but I see her POV.

Sybil I laughed at your comment about DH's career taking off now he has little wifey at home but it is very true - I am on mat leave for 10 months and DH has been able to commit to all sorts of things at work in the knowledge that he will not have to respond to any childcare crises unless I am ill.

And Mandyville - I honestly thought for a minute that you were somehow pregnant with an actual toddler and wondered if that were possible - I really need to get some sleep......

The whole debate makes me wonder that unless men can get pregnant, there will never be true equality. But I wouldn't have missed having my babies for the world - I'm glad it was me that got to do it, not DH so I cannot balance the equality equation terribly succesfully.

Sybil - the 'little wifey' comment - don't undermine yourself by doing down the value of wifework. You are contributing to family success and DH career success with what you do. Not that this means you aren't missing out / frustrated in your own career - but it doesn't mean you have to dismiss the value of what your current role is doing.

Am rather worried that this is going to come across as patronising pat on head to wifey (and I am one too...) - but am trying to get at that II think part of what feminism needs to achieve is valuing all the 'invisible' work done by caring & support activities. Take pride in it. Taking pride in it doesn't stop you also striving for something else too - now or as kids grow up.

Aaargh that comes across as load of tosh. Meant that one of the ways I have achieved a bit more mental peace is to understand the value of all my wifework to us as a family, and to acknowledge and be aware of some of the de-selfing that goes on. Cos if I don't at least do that for myself, I can't rely on anyone else to so it. I still think of myself as a professional, whatever my current job.

I'll shut up now. Posting from phone disastrous for being able to review sensibility of post.

Sybil, no I am not saying women are at fault, but I am saying that women need to take responsibility for ensuring that when it comes to a discussion with their dh as to who compromises on their career that they don't either get railroaded or worse nudged bit by bit into a position where they are the ones doing the compromising. I think as women we need to ensure that we bring our dds up to expect equality. I don't think the Govt can come into my home and tell dh that my job is just as important as his but when he tries to take the piss I can put my foot down and tell him myself. I am currently on mat leave and dh is loving it because it means that he can be like all the other senior men at his company with a wife at home and not a child related problem in the world. That's fine, but in a few weeks time I am back at work and then I expect him to return to fully co-parenting and that means for example if we have a childcare crisis, he takes the same number of days off as me at home. I have no doubt that we will have a good few arguments before he gets the message!!

i am not sure in my work that i've ever met any mother who has 'come back' and worked the same hours as before they had children. all of them have gone for some form of reduced hours or even just 'worked to rule'.

i'm in a very equality-aware sector and many men also go reduced or compressed hours.

i am not sure that anybody with children who does reduced or compressed hours progresses at the same rate as those without. but in my field most people work too hard when young, have children late, then get a better work/life balance and are generally happier.

Seriously? I have never worked part time. I am an all or nothing kind of woman!

yes, seriously, but i think that says a lot about my employer - i do know mothers who work full-time hours but they are either compressed into four days or have some kind of late or early arrangement..

Only the women?

I got way more efficient after having children and I'm sure many mothers do. You also tend to go home earlier on occasion but work late at home. So appearances can be deceptive.

When I found out I was pregnant I applied to go part-time at my well-paid job. It was refused and they tried to cover themselves by saying "This isn't sexist because we wouldn't let a man go part-time either" to which I wanted to scream "But a man wouldn't have to go part-time because he would have a wife at home doing the childcare".

Maybe I should have gone to a tribunal but I was worried about the effect on my pregnancy as was single mum to be and pretty stressed anyway.

Yes agree. I work 6am - 2pm now and extra marking etc on Saturdays. So it probably looks like I'm doing less to the others that still get in at 10. Plus I am MILES more efficient now.