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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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438 replies

GloriaVanderbilt · 14/09/2011 16:53

Hello,

I just reported a thread started by 'Dittony' which had a title attacking another poster and provided a link to a blog post.

It looked like a few others had reported it too as they had posted on it.

However in A/C there is another thread with the same title, which when you click on it takes you to a page saying 'error: thread deleted at OP's request'.

The OP however would appear to be someone who posted on the first thread, but not the same person who started it.

So can anyone please clarify what happened here...assuming the second thread was not posted by the same person as the first, (which has now gone) under a namechange?

(really hope not!)

OP posts:
BobBanana · 15/09/2011 14:54

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DontCallMeFrothyDragon · 15/09/2011 14:55

Ooh, yes, Bob. Cos you know exactly how she meant it. Men are ind readers. Women can't be funny, and they lie to try to look funny.

Is that it?

LRDTheFeministDragon · 15/09/2011 14:58

Bob, my post was a lighthearted joke. Most people would find it funny. I am sorry that you did not. But that is not my fault. I do think you need to think about your issues - it's not healthy, in the long run, to respond like this to a bit of friendliness, and it just makes it harder to take what you say seriously.

I'm afraid I have to go - I can't sit around chatting on the net all day and I think your problems are really a long way beyond my experience now. All I can do is say I hope you can come to terms with this and realize that you are not approaching this quite rationally at the moment.

Beachcomber · 15/09/2011 15:00

Sigh.

You are Doing It Right Now. I don't have to do a search.

I could though if I could be arsed and find a thread where I said exactly the same things to you there as I am saying now. I could find another one where you were ranting and calling me a liar and the rest of us 'absolute scum'.

I already told you not to piss me off with your gaslighting ways.

Did you read the link I posted specifically for you? Do you have anything to say about it? Are you listening yet Bob?

BobBanana · 15/09/2011 15:01

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TheCrackFox · 15/09/2011 15:03

Let it go, Bob, let it go.

Beachcomber · 15/09/2011 15:03

Actually it didn't sound like a dig.

It sounded like a feminist doing that thing we do where we joke around to let a man know he is acting like a dude.

In a less man friendly space you would be told to fuck off. We joke here to let the dudely blokes know that they are acting dudely.

HereBeBolloX · 15/09/2011 15:04

o yes I remember bob calling us absolute scum

Has pan called us absolute scum at all?

Beachcomber · 15/09/2011 15:05

Hey Bob, did you read that link yet - it will answer a lot of your questions?

Which is why I posted it - so I don't have to waste my time educating you to the ways of feminism.

DontCallMeFrothyDragon · 15/09/2011 15:12

Bob, when a man comes on here and makes "priviledged" type comments, we draw their attention to it. You were attempting to make this thread Teh Bobz Show. I do it with my male friends all the time. Something like "dude, you're mansplaining!", or "wow, I was waiting for prince charming to save me".

That' what LRD was doing.

Wamster · 15/09/2011 15:13

Bob, I didn't read LRD's comment as a joke, either, she may very well have meant it as a joke, but I didn't see it that way.
It just reminds me of the horrible men who I know in real life who make horrible sexist jokes about say, the size of breasts or some other aspect of her gender like 'Oh the little woman is here to cook', then, when the woman gets offended, say stuff like: 'Can't you take a joke? Oh where is your sense of humour!'

Beachcomber · 15/09/2011 15:13

Here you go, I'll even quote the most relevant bit for you (Edd needs to read all of it). Don't say I'm not good to you now - even though you do call me a liar and absolute scum Smile.

"As a guy who spends a great deal of time reading about, commenting on, and posting about feminist issues, I try to be really aware of what it means to have Male Privilege. I firmly believe that our culture- the very way that our society is structured- is harmful to women, and, as someone who strongly values fairness, I think that we have an obligation to work to end that. And while I also think that patriarchical systems hurt men, too, there's also the reality that part of fighting against sexism and part of being a feminist is the recognition that ending these oppressive structures means giving up unearned privileges.

And that's hard.

It's not always easy to step back and examine why I'm reacting the way I am. It's not easy to have someone accuse me of exhibiting male privilege- there are times when I want to say "But I'm on your side!" I want to do the right thing, and being told that I'm missing doesn't feel good, and it can make me feel defensive. I work to get past that and to examine my feelings and thoughts, and I often find that the other person is right. I think that I come out ahead for it, but it's not always easy or fun to discover some element of privilege that you weren't aware you had.

And the reality is that there are times when I don't think I'm wrong, and that can actually be worse.

It's not something that I talk about, and I've thought about talking about a number of times in the past, and I've always backed off, because... well, it's not a fun conversation, but if I'm going to be open and honest about my experiences as a man on feminist spaces, I think it's important to talk about it. Particularly if I want to make it clear to other men what they're in for and what they should expect.

There are times when I read a post or a comment on feminist blogs, and I simply can't participate in the conversation. It could be that I recognize that there's nothing I can add to the conversation, or it could be that the conversation is about a topic where my experiences as a man mean that I can't contribute in a meaningful way, but sometimes it's because I know that no matter what I say, it's going to create hostility, because sometimes the comments are coming from a place of deep frustration and hurt as a result of life experiences that I can only imagine.

So, yes, there are times when I simply have to shut up. Is that fair?

I don't know. Maybe it's not. Maybe I ought to be able to freely express my thoughts without fear of being unjustly attacked. Maybe I should be able to respectfully disagree with someone and expect to be treated with the same respect. Maybe.

But, honestly, I don't think so.

I think that it's my obligation as a male on a feminist space to recognize that one of the privileges that many men enjoy is the ability to have their voice respected over that of a woman. Another aspect that I try to keep in mind, and that I think is important is that many women are used to having their voices silenced, and that sometimes their anger and resentment is coming from a place that I'll never have to experience.

One of the ways that men can help deconstruct patriarchical systems is by having empathy for women's experiences, and by recognizing that sometimes it's important to shut up on women's spaces. In a world that consistently devalues the experiences of women, it's not so much to ask that women have a place where they're free to vent their frustrations."

StewieGriffinsMom · 15/09/2011 15:20

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BobBanana · 15/09/2011 15:22

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Beachcomber · 15/09/2011 15:24

Did you read the link yet?

Wamster · 15/09/2011 15:26

Bob I don't know exactly what you've said in the past here, but all you did in the post that LRD made a 'joke' about was say that you were good at computing. How this gives you 'male privilege' is anybody's guess as women are good at computing, too.

It gives you 'privilege' in the sense that you know what you are talking about when it comes to computers, but this privilege is something that women who know about computers also share and I suppose it gives you privilege over every (male and female) person who doesn't know about computers, but, wtf? Male privilege? No not seeing it.

Not a joke in my opinion and to be totally honest having been on the end of such gender-based 'jokes' only yesterday, it's really not that funny. 'Oh you are the woman you can cook'. Yep said to me yesterday. Hilarious.

MadameDefarge · 15/09/2011 15:27

Bob, is it too much to ask that you accept LRDs explanation and just move on?

It's what grown ups do, whether male or female. Making her grovel by hugging your affront so tightly is, I am afraid, making it all about you and she clearly said it wasn't. She can't make her point any clearer. Let it go.

By refusing to accept her explanation means that no debate can continue. your response seems overly emotional and you might want to think about what button it pressed for you. For the rest of us following this thread is is rather dull to have to read your protestations that you KNOW she meant to be nasty, whatever she says. Its all a bit playground.

BobBanana · 15/09/2011 15:27

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MadameDefarge · 15/09/2011 15:30

The thing is, I don't think some of the men here get that the level of discourse is higher than everyday pointing out what sexism is. HAving to engage with a lower level of awareness and consciousness is wearing, and yes, sometimes people are going to get patronised.

My particular field of expertise is language and literature. If I were on a forum for academics, I would be pretty bored and annoyed to have to explain to each and every newcomer what the nucleus of a sentence is.

Hullygully · 15/09/2011 15:48

Oh the madness of it all.

Yes, Beach, I am going to defend myself.

On those threads of which you speak, and of which were spoken yesterday:

Oh never mind, I'm losing the will to live.

whatever dittany does or doesn't do, whether she goes or stays or whatever, she'll always be the victim in her mind and some others'.

But I wasn't unpleasant to her, never have been. i tried only to get her to understand why loads of women felt driven out of feminism and how counterproductive that was.

She of course has never been anything but sweet and delightful to all.

slug · 15/09/2011 15:50

One of the reasons I love this blog so much is because these rules are stricly enforced

Wamster · 15/09/2011 15:51

'Important to shut up in woman's spaces'- really? Presumably, then, women should just 'shut up' in/on men's spaces?

Women -and men- should not be expected to 'shut up' on account of their gender. How can feminism be taken seriously if it tells men to do exactly what men have told women to do for years? It doesn't make things more balanced or fair; an eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind.

The attitude should be to treat everybody (male and female) with respect, not tell them to 'shut up'.

MarginallyNarkyPuffin · 15/09/2011 15:55

It's great that another thread has been taken over by men explaining why feminiss are mean

theothersparticus · 15/09/2011 15:56

Thanks slug, can anyone suggest any other MRA free troll free good feminist forums?

ShirelyKnotSHIRE · 15/09/2011 15:59

Best thing going forwards is just to ignore ignore ignore ignore I think.

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