Fat/Size Acceptance

[GothAnneGeddes]

I'm not sure if we have a thread on this yet, so apologies if we have and I've missed it.

I think of all the toxic, time-wasting shite women have to put up with, Diet Culture aka Be Thin and Win, is one of the most widespread. It is the unholy triumvirate of body policing, self hatred and bad science.

I thought this was a really interesting take on Jamie Oliver's new obesity campaign: shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2011/09/on-fat-hatred-and-eliminationism.html#disqus_thread

Would love to know what you all think

Er, yes

SardineQueen, my apologies if my early posts made it feel like I was having a go at you or implying you were stupid, that was certainly not my intention.

And there's the nub, isn't it. The beauty industry takes a beautiful woman, digitally alters her so that she appears free of 'imperfections' such as pores (!) and then implies we all should, and could, look like that ... which isn't even real. No wonder we find it so easy to hate our bodies.

My mum looked stunning in her wedding suit, 1954. She wasn't a film star or anything - very pretty, 38-26-38 if I remember rightly - and wore tight-cut outfits. Trillian, a 38" bust is size 16 although these days it comes with a wider waist and hips. I think we might suppose Marilyn wasn't eating much in the run-up to her suicide.

Good point!

Let's look at Marilyn's size in Next, for example. Other shops may have different sizes.

The largest she could be according to your sources is:
38 bust (14-16)
24 waist (just under a size 6)
36 hips (10)

So I conclude that she was a bloody weird shape and would have found it hard to buy dresses. But not fat, definitely not fat, and not large by today's standards either.

I went to see the "Marilyn" exhibition at the American Museum in Bath this summer, and saw lots of her clothes on display, including basques and underwear from films like "Gentlemen prefer Blondes". Her clothes were TINY.
Seriously teeny waist - about a size 6, and bust no bigger than a 12. She was just a classic curvy hourglass shape - none of this teenage boy figure with fake plastic tits shit that girls think is normal nowadays.

"A fat women is thought of as greedy and not willing to prioritise looking sexually appealing to men. Women are not meant to take up too much space, not meant to consume too much and must, must, must cater to the male gaze. So a fat women is a very bad women indeed and must be punished."

Yes. Read "Fat is a Feminist Issue", ladies - its is just as relevant today as when it was first published.

I conclude that she was a bloody weird shape
And wore one of these. Ouch.

Don't forget the conical bra that gave my mum her sweater-girl assets

I've just discovered that site! Have wandered right off topic now, am engrossed in fashion history ...

I wonder how today's magazine eds would have Marilyn airbrushed? I doubt she'd look very sexy with the obligatory slimming down / decelluliting / plasticising techniques applied. Ha! There is no formula to natural beauty. Dove are so close, yet so far with their campaigns.

Well quoted, MrsF - and thanks, I was about to start rummaging through my book boxes!

Fat women pretend MM was heavy because it makes them feel happier when they tuck into their crispy creme donuts but they're just conning themselves.

Most of her life she was the normal shape women are or were before most women got fat which is out at the bust, in at the waist and out at the hips and often weighed about 9 stone, sometimes down to 8 stone something, but some times 10 stone 7 pounds at her heaviest. I think she was average height too which is mine and is about 5 foot 5.

British women used to be about 5 foot 4 and about 9 stone. Now they can well be 18 stone and the same height because they got so heavy.

Most of her life she was the normal shape women are or were

No, she is very unusual in her proportions.

wot xenia said

First time I've ever said that

Her proportions are what made her beautiful. If she'd overeaten or limited her food, she wouldn't look as good. She looks healthy.

Still away on my tangent - did you know Victorian women wore a stone of underwear? The Rational Dress Society, in 1881, campaigned for women to wear no more than 7lb of the stuff. What with whalebone stays and fourteen pounds of gathered & pleated underpinnings, topped with a crinolined, padded skirt and two or three tops, women literally couldn't move.

She may have been a normal weight but she was not a normal shape.

Hello? Feminist discussion on body policing anyone? Or are we just going to talk about women "stuffing their faces with doughnuts" like folks do everywhere else on MN?

That's what I started off trying to say - umm, but you said it better and I got sidetracked by the horrors of Victorian women's lives

In my personal experience - so a sample of one - shifting the preconceptions is a lifetime's work. But worth it (not that I'm quite there yet!) for many reasons, including that I'm now more capable of relating to other people for who they are.

I've had eating disorders, exercise addictions and a depilatory obsession that bordered on trichotillomania. And the weird thing is that, for all these quite severe psychological disorders, I was praised.

Didn't the book club read FIFA a few months ago? What did y'all make of it?

FIFA's the football league thing, isn't it?! Fat Is A Feminist Issue, I meant

Ok, well in response to your OP, and the link you posted, my view is that writer is falling into the same trap as most FA lobbyists and that the FA lobby needs to change tack if it's going to be successful.

My personal view is that obesity is largely preventable and that most people who are fat are fat because they eat too much/move too little. However, whilst most people could stop being obese by eating less/moving more, that won't happen because we have a surplus of tasty food and most of us like eating it more than we like to rock the Size 12 look. Staying thin in modern society takes constant willpower and a measure of denial, and so fat is here to stay.

Where the FA lobby gets confused is that instead of just saying "Being fat is not a crime against humanity. I like eating. Get over it." they become fat apologists and start banging the "genetics/ ED/poverty drum". They're taking the line "It's not people's fault they're fat" whereas they should take the "it doesn't matter why I'm fat. Fat is okay. It's just a body size."

When we get to fat just being fat, instead of code for lazy, undisciplined, etc, then we'll be better off, but the FA lobby arent helping themselves by turning it into a "fault vs not fault" debate.

Garlicnutter - it worries me hugely the amount of praise that weightloss gets. Not just if you're happy, then I'm happy for you, but wow, amazing. Further to what you were saying before, do you think we should have a trigger warning on this topic? Also, I know some spaces where they discourage posting your actual weight & size because that can prove triggering for people too.

I would love to read FIFA. Must put it on my reading list.

The Bride I do think poverty and the ensuing issues are real (possible more so in the US then here), also the issue of what exactly is going into our food and why. I think when anyone does the finger wagging about obseity, it's important to remind them of that.

To your second point, you'll find a lot in the FA world talk about the pressure to be 'good fat' (eats fairly healthy foods, exercises) not 'bad fat' (who doesn't) and the increasing consensus is that this is more nonsense and it is indeed better to say as you put it "it doesn't matter why I'm fat. Fat is okay. It's just a body size."

What I really liked about that post in the OP was the use of the term eliminationist. I'd never come across it before and prior to that, while being aware that the world could do with minding it's own business about women's bodies, I never really thought about how wanting a whole group of people to not exist, because of their body shape, is downright sinister.

Today on my facebook a friend writes how she's fainting because she's on the Lipotrim diet, where you just drink milkshakes and there are so many comments cheering her on and I just want to blow my Feminist Foghorn and say that there's nothing wrong with her body and this is harmful...but I wussed out

I agree GothAnn. I remember vividly a time when I was quite unwell and list a stone, my good friends said "what's wrong, I'm worried about you". Everyone else said "You look fantastic!". Which I did not.

Sadly, I've told this story on MN before and was told that meant I must be fat and needed to lose the weight. I didn't.

Lost not list!

it depends what size fat we are talking about: it is a feminist issue for women's health to become more important societically than her size/looks. and also that underweight is unhealthly, just as overweight.

but some parts of the fat acceptance movement just seem to be dangerous anti science and I dont think this enpowers women (or men either).

quote from wiki on the fat acceptance movement: they "believe health to be independent of, not dependent on, body weight."

for me better popular understanding of science relating to weight and health is the best way to empower women and societly. also the FAM seems to be people locked up on their own denial trying to get other people to agree with them to reenforce their beliefs.

another feminist issue relating to weight is the affect of income on weight: women with higher incomes are thiner. men's weight is unaffected by income.

Tilly - do you know if that is household income or independent income? As in, is it also linked to good education, or working f/t? Or just the amount of money available to spend on food?