Fat/Size Acceptance

[GothAnneGeddes]

I'm not sure if we have a thread on this yet, so apologies if we have and I've missed it.

I think of all the toxic, time-wasting shite women have to put up with, Diet Culture aka Be Thin and Win, is one of the most widespread. It is the unholy triumvirate of body policing, self hatred and bad science.

I thought this was a really interesting take on Jamie Oliver's new obesity campaign: shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2011/09/on-fat-hatred-and-eliminationism.html#disqus_thread

Would love to know what you all think

There are a number of other factors to diet as well, including what job you do and how physically tired it makes you. I work unsociable hours. Yesterday I worked very late after a DC-related broken night's sleep. I was shattered. I ate two packets of crisps, a Wispa and a bakewell tart. Basically, to keep me awake and functioning. There are good studies which back up what I did - that it is a) typical (shift workers eat more carbs) and b) effective (a boost in blood sugar helps with concentration)

Although you could have had a banana or peanut butter sandwich instead, Robot, which would have given you the carb and blood sugar boost, without the crap.

I also think that blog was ridiculous. There are many reasons for people being obese, from poverty and lack of education, to the promotion of unhealthy food and the premiums on healthier stuff. Throwing up your hands and saying "I was born like this, there's nothing I can do about it" is very obviously bollocks. If I ate a load of unhealthy food on a regular basis, and didn't take exercise, I would put on a shitload of weight - that wouldn't mean that I was meant to be like that. Some people might be more genetically disposed to store fat, but that doesn't mean they're incapable of being a healthy weight.

Oh and dittany, quite right. Knowledge is power in all regards, and feeding shit food to children so they grow up not even realising it is shit food, is not empowering.

You're quite right, Theala, but there wasn't one in the snack machine, which post-7pm is my only work catering option. I could have brought one in, but you never go in to work expecting to flag and need to constantly eat in order to stay alert, it sort of creeps up on you after 3pm...

True. And you're quite right that the job you do (mine is totally sedentary) and your food options around that are also partly to blame for levels of fatness.
I do mostly eat healthy food and take the time to exercise, but I earn a fair enough wage, and have the spare time to shop for and cook healthy food and to exercise. If I had DC, or other big time committment, and I earned significantly less, I'm pretty sure I would eat more crap convenience food and I would definitely take less exercise.

That's the thing, though, the reasons for the rise in obesity are many and varied, but the sense of unreflecting defense in the linked article get my goat may prevent the author and readers of that article from identifying the real factors causing obesity.

Isn't this a bit like the simplistic arguments about teen pregnancies? Folks rabbit on about there being no excuse, that there are lots of contraceptive choices, you can get condoms free from clinics, kids have sex education in school, everything is laid out for them, so it HAS to be loose morals/wanting a council flat/unbridled promiscuity/etc. that means girls still get pregnant. That fails to recognise the complex influences on the lives of many young women that sometimes result in them becoming pregnant. Unless you take on those (e.g. abuse and coercion in relationships, poor self-esteem, lack of aspirations, lack of nurturing in their own families, early sexualisation, background noise of sexism everywhere, etc.) then stuff won't change by just handing out free johnnies.

Imho, it's the same with weight. It's not just about having healthy food at the shop next door or the skills to select, cook and serve it. Sooooo much more than that. And, expectations of the "correct" body size and shape ARE gendered in our society. Fat still very much is a feminist issue.

Are you saying women should eat what they like and ballon to a size 20?

I don't understand.

Do you determine a woman's value on the basis of their mass, or her appearance in general? Are all size 20 women identical and universally to be reviled?

(I think I'm getting what Liss means in the Shakesville piece now )

See, I could be wrong, but I don't even think that's what'd happen, carmina. I think people who genuinely eat what they like, and don't eat for comfort, or to keep themselves awake on a shift, or because they've decided to call iceream their 'treat', probably don't end up at size 20 anyway. There isn't something intrinsically delicious about cheap carb/fat/sugar stuff. How often do you buy a cheap 'treat' and feel cheated?

So I agree that having money for better food, and time to cook it, and getting rid of the mindset (and that Orwell quotation is spot on) that certain things are treats, is important. But how will you do that for women if you don't adress the fact that, increasingly, being size 12 or over is 'fat' and there is a widening gap between what's healthy and what's considered pretty?

To be honest, I think lots of women are in this position where they're a decently healthy weight and maybe a size 12/14/16 ... but they are so convinced they're unattractive, it doesn't 'matter' any more and they eat crap for comfort.

I mean to say ... I don't think it's true that what every woman really 'wants' to eat, is enough food to make her a size 20. I think the reasons why many people eat that much are far more complex than 'this is delicious and I want it'.

I judge very fat 'people' - I don't see why a women should escape my judging purely because she's a 'women' - I think I understand what you're saying though, depression and other factors can lead to overeating ( women will use food whereas men will use alcohol ) - but on the whole, I'd say fat people are fat because they love their fatty food and don't exercise enough. I agree there is more pressure on women to be slim, but that's because women have always been more into fashion and looking after themselves generally, more so than men. I don't Judge a persons value on their weight or looks however - I'm not that shallow - but at the same time I wouldn't allow myself to get dangerously overweight or turn a blind eye to my dd's doughnut obsession.

When was the last time folks heard anyone commenting on a man's trouser size, with a, "Oh, he used to be just a 30 waist, but now I'm sure he's at least a 34. He's really let himself go." But, there seems to be an obsession about clothing sizes and women. It's a function of society's obsession about women's appearance, the need to control that appearance (and underlying that, the need to control women full stop, imho.)

In the 19th century, a larger than average woman was seen as attractive. Her size was an indicator that she was of a privileged background because she was well-fed, not suffering from any emaciating disease and didn't have to work. Now, folks would view the same woman as being unattractive and her size being a result of poor self-control, laziness and being unintelligent/unwilling/unable to choose a healthier lifestyle. Both views are still about controlling women.

In my experience, clothing sizes are far from absolute. I have some shoes that are size 6 and some size 8, but since I don't take off and swap my feet for others, there must be something inconsistent in the sizing. Same goes for my clothes. I routinely take 3 different sized garments into a changing room and it's anybody's guess what number will correspond to the one that fits. My boss is probably a size 18 or 20, at a guess. But she's also about 6' 2" so would certainly not be in a healthy state if she were an average size 10 or 12. She is fit and healthy, physically active, but damn, she's the wrong dress size, so fit to be "judged" by others. People automatically believe they have a right to make "helpful" suggestions to her about dealing with her "size." And yes, she gets schtick from both women and men about her size (height and weight) - maybe because women aren't "meant" to take up that much physical or verbal space and other people feel entitled to tell her so.

I think we genuinely don't know what it's like to be in other people's bodies though, and so assuming that a size 20 person is just like (size 12) me but eating FAR FAR FAR more, probably isn't the case. Yes, that person probably does eat a bit more unhealthily than me. But that much more unhealthily? I just don't know. Because I do eat shit on shifts when I'm tired (although last night was an extreme example) and I do have 3 or so bags of crisps a week, but then again I can't remember the last time I went into McDonalds for example, or had a takeaway pizza (by which I mean it must have been several years ago). They're too lardy for me and I don't enjoy them. And I do have a glass of wine most nights, but never more than one. So I'm far from perfect - but I can see how half a bottle of wine most nights, and McDonalds / Dominos once a week would make me a size 16 within a year, and probably upwards from there. And if I cut out the daily tipple and the crisps? A size 10 probably.

But the stark truth is I don't want to be a size 10 and live without those things. I like them. Which, of course, is nobody's business but mine as I have a BMI of 21 and getting it down to 20 isn't something my doctor would give two hoots about. But if I was bigger, I might feel just the same about the Dominos and the McDonalds - that I would rather be bigger than go years without them. But in that case, everyone has an opinion. And I'm not sure that's fair. If I'm not prepared to like without 3 bags of hula hoops a week, why should I expect anyone else to do without their Big Mac, just because I don't like them?

Well, by that reckoning, Robot, why shouldn't I drink a bottle of vodka a day, just because I like drinking bottles of vodka? Just because other people drink just one small glass of red wine a day, why should they criticize my drinking and say I'm unhealthy?

My weight has crept up slowly but steadily since I met my DP two years ago. I used to be reliably 11 stone and now I'm just under 12. I'm not eating or drinking massively more or more unhealthily than I used to, just that little bit more, regularly (eating bigger portions, large amounts of bread, and drinking too much, mostly). However, I know that if I don't do something about it now, in another two years, I'll be 13 or 14 stone. And then I'll probably stop exercising because I feel ridiculous exercising when I'm fat, and I don't want to put on running shorts when my thighs are rubbing together. And from there, things snowball and before I know it I'm 20 stone and don't go out much anymore.
You know what I mean? It's not like overweight or obese people wake up one day and they're fat...it's usually a slow build-up over many years.

I think you have to be careful going so far the other way that obesity becomes okay, it simply is not you don't even have to be obese to have a large increase in the risk of developing major health issues relating to being overweight.

In my eyes it is similar to the abuse of alcohol I am not talking about alcoholics but the all round binge drinking culture we have both of which are causing a large strain on our health services as we increasing catch up with America.

I agree - being overweight has numerous health implications that can't be ignored.

Actually, being overweight (not obese) is the healthiest way to be. Do some research!

Just clicked on the Jamie Oliver petition. It doesn't mention malnutrition. it doesn't mention lack of access to exercise/ play spaces. It mentions obesity aka fat people and in a culture where fat is always demonised I think that's highly dubious. Let's be clear, obesity = fat. he wants to stop people being fat.

So if all these malnourished kids were thin, there would be no problem (even though there would be, because malnourishment is a problem whether you're fat or thin)

Like KRI said, fat used to be desirable. The current fashion for thin, no matter what, is a social construct, and we know who controls the social contruct. That this type of thinness (size 0) is so difficult for most women to achieve is a pyramid scheme. Beauty being deemed as something only present in a few, is a prescription for self hatred and shame for the rest of us.

Again KRI mentioned about only women being shamed about their size. Look at Oprah as rich and successful as she is, she still hangs her head and says how ashamed she is when she gains weight. Can you find any male equivalent to this?

Do I need to mention about the billion pound diet industry and how much money there is in getting women to diet, even when those diets lead women into yo-yoing between weight loss and weight gain.

Don't you watch those stupid Special K adverts where the model is being tormented, yes tormented, by food (an inanimate object!) and think that women are being patronised and belittled.

This is about so much more then "stuffing yourself with cake" and "not letting yourself go" (funny why it's only women who use that last phrase).

The reason being fat back then or still is in some parts of the world was/is because it was/is damn hard to get fat and in order to do it you had/have to be wealthy. It's the complete opposite now though where being fat is more a sign of eating too much or too little exercise.

What is also annoying is the either/or mentality people get when talking about weight. If someone mentions being fat/obese is not a good thing people go straight to the opposite end and talk about being ultra thin as though there is nothing in between.

Fat is not a bad thing, it becomes so when there is too much of it and our obesity problem is self inflicted for most.

So whilst being fat back then was a sign of wealth, health and a comfortable life, in our society it is now a sign of bad health. Also those that would be fat would be few a complete contrast to now where people gain weight far too fast and way too much it is even affecting our children.

I'm not quite sure what your point is, GothAnneGeddes. If you're saying that there's far too much pressure on women to conform to a certain standard body type, then I am in agreement with you.
However, you also appear to be saying that people shouldn't be told that being fat or obese is generally unhealthy, and I can't agree with that. While being slightly overweight may not have much impact on your health, being obese does.

"Overweight and obesity are the fifth leading risk for global deaths. At least 2.8 million adults die each year as a result of being overweight or obese. In addition, 44% of the diabetes burden, 23% of the ischaemic heart disease burden and between 7% and 41% of certain cancer burdens are attributable to overweight and obesity." www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs311/en/

In a world where more and more people are becoming obese, I don't actually see the problem in pointing out that this is not a good thing, in the same way that it's been pointed out that smoking and drinking to excess are not desirable either.

Your male equivalent to Oprah could be any on-again/off-again alcoholic. Or any smoker who's having health problems because of their smoking, like my DP, who're ashamed of the fact that they can't seem to give up.

As ColdTruth says, you don't have to be either/or about this, you can be against the diet industry and the ridiculous assumption that any woman over a size 10 is fat, while still supporting the idea that obesity is also a problem. "Healthy weight" is actually quite a wide range.

Could it not be that those who feel entitled to demonise fat people, fat women in particular, use the "it's not healthy" argument as a front for their bigotry? Yes, very, very overweight people are prone to greater health risks than those in the normal range, but so are very, very underweight people. The problem is that the "normal range" according to dominant perceptions in society, is not the same as the "normal healthy range" and tends towards an unhealthily thin zone.

I don't think it's particularly helpful to compare being over weight with being an alcoholic, or to suggest that there isn't a strong gendered angle to the demonisation of fat women because there is a counterpart in the demonisation of alcoholic men.

Thank you KRI.

Being fat is not the same as being alcoholic. For most people, being fat doesn't impair their daily lives, damage their relationships, stop them from keeping a job.

It's a terrible comparision and shows why you shouldn't just measure people in terms of possible healthcare costs. Shall we compare OAP to alcoholics too? They cost the NHS millions.

'Could it not be that those who feel entitled to demonise fat people, fat women in particular, use the "it's not healthy" argument as a front for their bigotry?'

I think this is so true. And I think that's the reason women get targeted in particular. Our society has a real problem with the idea that women's bodies actually belong to the women themselves and are not somehow public property. So I think some people, when they see a fat woman, do not just disapprove out of concern for her health - they disapprove because subconsciously, they feel that woman has selfishly done something unhealthy/unattractive to the body that isn't just for her. This seems to me a bit like the very judgy attitudes people get with pregnant women's bodies.

Yes LRD, that's it in a nutshell.