Fat/Size Acceptance

[GothAnneGeddes]

I'm not sure if we have a thread on this yet, so apologies if we have and I've missed it.

I think of all the toxic, time-wasting shite women have to put up with, Diet Culture aka Be Thin and Win, is one of the most widespread. It is the unholy triumvirate of body policing, self hatred and bad science.

I thought this was a really interesting take on Jamie Oliver's new obesity campaign: shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2011/09/on-fat-hatred-and-eliminationism.html#disqus_thread

Would love to know what you all think

Our environment has moved too fast for us. We are programmed to overeat in times of plenty to have fat to see us through times of scarcity. However, in the west, calories are always cheap and plentiful. It's not surprising that obesity is on the rise. In fact, the surprising thing is that there aren't more fat people.

I think on balance it would be better to just accept that's the way it's going, and stick a tax on junk food to pay for all the additional diabetes/ joint problems/ heart attacks etc.

Nagging fat people about being fat doesn't seem to help. It just makes them depressed. It's not like everyone doesn't know that being fat isn't good for your health, but whilst the calories in vs calories out argument is probably basically correct, it doesn't take into account that food in our society has assumed a significance that goes way beyond simply a way to stay alive. it's at the heart of social functions, it's a reward, it's a comfort, it's a punishment. It's fucked up basically.

I agree with dittany. Jamie Oliver's message is (and always has been) about food being healthy and enjoyable.

It's not about diets and punishment and demonising fat people, it's about giving children the opportunity to grow up understanding and loving food and cooking.

Obesity is easy to measure and see, that's why it is being focused on in the campaign. The people paying for it want something they can measure and report on.

Couple of quick points havven't read whole thread

The idea that fat people eat all the time / loads / crap is incorrect.

They have got fat at some point, maybe over along period of time. Then to maintain that size they eat a "normal" diet - calories in = calories out. If they kept eating stacks they would keep getting fatter and fatter. It is initially counter-intuitive but correct when you apply a little logic for a couple of secs.

Also agree with george orwell about when you're down for whatever reason, green lentil salad simply doesn't appeal as much as chips. There is actually a "cholesterol high" apparently which means that when you have foods with lots of cholesterol you get happy in your brain. This includes prawns and avocado as well as things which are thought of as fatty.

got to work now will read rest of thread and be back in a bit is very interesting

Re people being fat in the older days and that was thought of as good

Fat then when lots of people were starving would not have been obese as per these days but fatter than the poor starving people ie probably not actually "fat" so much as healthy and well fed

Also life expectancy was much lower so even if you were massive you'd likely be dead from disease or whatever before the fatness got the better of you.

You can't compare then with now. The fashion has changed for a reason. It's so as not to look poor. What poor people look like has changed in the UK.

Sorry for multi posting there is so much here.

Totally agree that food and alcohol are similar in many ways. They give a short term high and cause long term high. People get addicted. The points upthread about people like carers eating because they can't drink or take drugs = very true I'm sure.

Many people have an "addictive" side and they will become addicted to what is available to them. Most pleasuarable activities have an effect on brain chemistry so if you get your high from betting or shagging or boozing or eating, it is possible to get addicted and I think that these things should be viewed in the same was. Also see addicts stopping one addiction and simply replacing it with another (hopefully less harmful) one.

It's a complicated old business.

Sardine On that note, I read an interesting article on bulimia a few years ago which argued that although bulimia and anorexia are often thought to be two sides of the same coin, in fact, that's misleading, and bulimics actually have more in common with alcoholics and drug addicts in terms of triggers and behaviour patterns.

That's a very interesting post SaF. The link to seratonin and appetite could explain a lot.

The other thing I was going to say (sorry) is that there are two issues getting a bit mixed up here and to me they are very separate.

One is the pressure on women to conform to a very narrow idea of what is acceptable, the "ideal" figure is unattainable for most without surgery, women with heads too big for their bodies are admired and an enormous diet industry and food industry gets rich off the resulting headfuck that the average woman lives with regarding food, weight, clothes and all teh rest of it.

Separate to that is the fact that society as a whole men women and children are developing unhealthy attitudes to food, having sedentary lifestyles, cheap crap available everywhere and all teh rest of it, and the fact that being too fat is definitely bad for you as is being too thin. These things do need addressing and I think that Jamie gettign the turkey twizzlers out and taking on these big corporate schools in the US is a good thing, some of the things he has exposed have been shocking and I believe that he is sincere in wanting to help rather than just wanting publicity.

And that's the otehr thing - our lifestyles have become so much more sedentary in the last 30 years. It is not that people have got lazier than they were or eating more shit. Apparently average calories intake in 70s was higher than now. But the little bits of exercise that we have to do have gone. Most people now have access to a car, everything at work is computers so no getting up and walking to records, carrying heavy files around. Obviously manual work has decreased a lot. Escalators and lifts all over the place, no need to carry the shopping home from the shops any more. All these little bits of exercise that people just had to do as part of their life have gone and that I am convinced is at the heart of this.

Also, I'm convinced that food in the Uk has got nicer since I was a child, and it's certainly got more varied, so it's more tempting.

I mean, no offense to my mum, but if I think back to dinners I had in the late 1970's there was only so much braising steak with turnip and carrot casserole that you want. If it's lasagna with garlic bread, that's another matter.

Sorry am typing so quickly some not coherent as am supposed to be working!

TheBride I am sure that is true about bulimia and drink/drugs.

I wonder if anorexia is more like OCD - a different type of problem. It's all about control isn't it.

I think it's important to point out that there is a different between being fat and having an eating disorder. While I accept that there are people of all sizes who suffer from disordered eating, I didn't start this thread to talk about them.

Someone can be fat and have no mental health issues, and being fat does not necessarily need treating, hence my objection to comparing being fat with being an alcoholic.

But Goth, I think a lot of people who are fat do suffer from disordered eating, in that you get fat by eating more than you need, often by eating when you are not hungry. I'm not saying that that is necessarily an "eating disorder" in the same league as anorexia or bulimia, but when people eat due to emotional stimuli rather than physical need, it's an important part of the reason why the bog standard government responses don't work. They assume that the issue is that people are fat because they lack the education to eat properly, when in fact people do know what they should be eating, but when they're feeling lonely, angry etc, they still go to the drive-thru, the same way that an alcoholic knows the booze isnt doing them any good, but when they have a tough day, they want a vodka.

Most people who are obese or close to obese are not so because they have disorders regarding food or another medical problem, they are obese because they either eat too much food, eat really bad food or because they have a sedentary lifestyle. I don't see obesity like alcoholism but similar to binge drinking.

I agree with TheBride.

People continuing with self-destructive behaviours even though they know they are self-destructive and they should not be doing them are similar.

So eating crap even when you know you shouldn't, is similar to drinking too much even though you know you shouldn't, over-doing the drugs even though you know you shouldn't and so on. Eating more than you should has a "blocking" effect in the same way as drinking and other behaviours.

I think that the not exercising thing is valid as unless you have depression or physical disabilities there is nothing really stopping you. But over-eating or eating the wrong things is a different kettle of fish.

I think that anyone who is obese or close to obese by definition has a problem with their relationship with food (barring if they are on medications etc).

Alcohol, eating disorders, medical conditions, etc. aside . . .

Isn't this thread about people feeling they have the right to judge, to condemn, to demonise women they perceive to be "too fat," (what that means is subjective,) regardless of the reason why the woman is the size and shape she is? And, doesn't it refer to a campaign in America, ostensibly about healthy eating, which is being "marketed" in such a way that it effectively colludes with those who feel entitled to diss those they see as fat, particularly women?

We all okay with this the?

Depends what you mean by 'judge', illness related to obesity is one of the leading causes of death and is generally not a good state to be in. I think people need to be informed especially since obesity levels are rising in both adults and children. It seems we have followed after the American model rather than the rest of Europe.

By judge, I suppose I'm thinking to assign negative personality traits and regard someone as being of lesser value because of their appearance. With regard to fatness, imho, this is targeted more at women who appear overweight than it does with men.

Okay, yeah or nay?

Quite KRICRI, in fact not just demonise, but wish that fat people would not exist at all. Is that not even slightly problematic? I would say it is. In a section which spends a lot of time unpicking societal messages, particularly those about women's bodies, I'm surprised that so many people are accepting fat=bad so uncritically.

My thoughts earlier were this

"One is the pressure on women to conform to a very narrow idea of what is acceptable, the "ideal" figure is unattainable for most without surgery, women with heads too big for their bodies are admired and an enormous diet industry and food industry gets rich off the resulting headfuck that the average woman lives with regarding food, weight, clothes and all teh rest of it." and obviously this is a bad thing.

Demonisation of overweight people is also bad - and women get it much worse than men. Overweight women earn less and are less likely to be able to get a job than their slimmer counterparts. This effect is much less stark in men.

It is a shame that we can't talk about the wider issues though as I find them very interesting.

And I think that the demonisation is wrapped up in religious/ right wing ideas about morality. Sloth and greed are sins. So fat people are sinners and bad people.

That is the root of these feelings I'm sure. Vanity for some reason is acceptable and even encouraged.