You don't have to be feminist to post here, but it helps...

[MrsReasonable]

I've noticed that whenever a 'non-feminist' view is brought up, there are occasionally some posts along the lines of 'this is a feminist board, why come here if you aren't...', etc.

Genuine question - is this a feminist board, or a board about feminism? Obviously the majority of posters are feminist, but I'm not sure whether that is because feminists (surprise surprise) like discussing feminism, or because it is seen as a feminist 'safe haven'?

if it is you should identify as a socialist non?

well it is Custardo. how not?

s it happens I do identify as socialist, but don't see how that's relevant to anti misogyny etc - but I can be both without negating either.

The thing about chicken-keeping, though, is that it's a specific and minority interest. It's ridiculous to even suggest there's any comparison with a political issue that impacts every woman on the planet and everyone who has anything to do with women.

Some threads in this section do seem to reflect ChickenKeeperMentality?, in that they seek to exclude posters who don't share the specific interests of the participants. I like to think feminism is a broad church, however it often seems very closely defined on here.

I'm not getting into a dispute here, btw. I seem to have successfully restricted myself to feminism-lite threads and feel safer that way. It's just that people keep making this chicken-keeper reference and I needed to state my objection!

But it's political Garlicnutter - most people aren't that into politics really, even though it affects them. In that sense the analogy works.

I consider myself to be a socialist, and for me that also means acknowledging and fighting women's oppression. I am not sure that I can also agree with every aspect of Patriarchy Theory, because at some point that does come into conflict with a class analysis: e.g. believing that working-class men benefit from women's oppression. I don't think they do, in the ways which really count. I think they are bought off by the system with male privileges, but that they would be better off as a group if women were actually equal and they could unite with them to reorganise society to distribute wealth properly so we could all live more freely and fairly.

But I still challenge women's oppression where I see it, because it is WRONG. I could be semantic, and say that I am a socialist rather than a feminist, but I don't. I still call myself a feminist, because in our society, refusing to accept that label generally involves queueing up on the side of forces who really don't like women very much, and for whatever reason either don't want them to be equal, or pretend/delude themselves that they already are.

So rather than say "I'm not a feminist, I'm a socialistbutwebelieveinwomen'sequality", I identify myself as a socialist AND a feminist. If I then go on to debate what I think are the causes of women's oppression (i.e. rooted in capitalism and class society rather that the idea of the Patriarchy), at least I'm doing it from a collaborative position as a fellow-traveller. The problem with refusing to identify as feminist even though you are against women's oppression, is that it tends to pit you against people that you largely agree with, and put you on the side of forces which are generally hostile to both women AND socialism.

I hope that makes sense- it took me ages to type, so I've probably missed loads of the discussion and it will look irrelevant

I believe that you did get upset Custardo, which is why I said I'm sorry that you did. It's horrible to feel like you're being attacked.

When you posted on Chat you posted a one line comment that required a yes or no answer. Not the long post that included that question, which was taken as the start of an exploration of PIV and questions such does the physiology of PIV mean that there is more power with the penetrator that the penetrated and is that the case with all penetrative sex eg male PIA sex, and the social context. I can understand that if that is what you took from the thread - 'is PIV a power issue, yes or no' - that you would have felt frustrated and ignored by the comments. The threads on here tend to go on from the OP and explore all sorts of related issues. People had moved on from the specific focus of the original post within a couple of pages.

Incidentally I don't think PIV is a power issue in that I don't feel it gives my DH 'power' when we have PIV. I do think that there are issues about penetration itself that are related to power, and being the one who is penetrated is viewed as the weaker position eg when you hear some straight men talk about gay sex.

I thought the PiV thread was interesting and it's a shame it's caused such a confloption.

Most of the people posting thought that in a consensual relationship the act of PiV was not in itself related to dominance / power and there were an awful lot of reasons why. the accompanying conversations that came out were really really interesting.

I think it would be a shame if we didn't talk about this stuff for fear of how we might be perceived.

yep i agree sardine.
i gave up on that one for the exact reason youve just said.
i think there was all diffrent angles to that thread that could of been interesting.

sparky

crikey dittany, did that take you a long time to go throught he other thread, source my posts, and take from them bits and pieces to put on this thread, out of context.

and whilst not answering the implicit question fo why you names me in a post which mentioned lots of other vile things that anti feminists do?

did it?

did you just prove Lenins point?

I think so

I thought it was interesting to discuss the same topic in Chat. I wish it hadn't involved a bit of feminism-bashing on the side, that made me feel crap. I have occasionally felt crap in this section too. We could probably all do with taking a breath at times.

In the main, though, I am very tired of being told feminists are all nasty bullies.

I do think there are people who are 'delicate flowers', actually. And they deserve to be heard too. However, I imagine they're as put off by the kind of angry 'you feminists are all bitches' talk as by anything any self-declared feminist says. Which is why it is especially annoying to have this constant, loud, angry, bitchy insistence that all feminists are loud, angry and bitchy.

Dittany - I find your politics interesting, but find the way you are passive aggressive to posters whose views don't match yours incredibly off-putting.

I find it quite shocking that you found yourself criticised and have failed to take any of it on board, choosing to shoot one of the messengers.

You have hounded me off the Femi board on several occasions (I'm a frequent namechanger for unrelated reasons) and I'm not anti-feminist, a troll, a MRA and yet you have called me all of these

Please come back but take the legitimate comments people had to say on board about your aggressive posting style.

Whats an MRA? thanks

Mens Rights Activist, noddy.

i think that[sometimes]the feminist board scares people...
because they have to look at where they stand in this[feminism and whats being discussed at that paticcallar time]....and it topsy turveys theyre world[sometimes]and sometimes the biggest defence is attack.
i was wondering why some are perfectly ok with posting[eg]in aibu but not here-but i think ive just answered my own question.
also...i think that some people just dont see whats going on around them..so they think everythings ok.and when they see things discussed on here...they just dont get it.

stripey....you was quite passive agressive when you said what you did about gay people on the other thread.
make sure youre fingernails are clean before you start biting them.

sparky

Who was it that said that feminism can be the lightest pink through to the deepest magenta? I liked that statement.

The section should be for all people who have an interest - no matter where they are 'hue' wise

I'm pretty sure most people read, take in and maybe change their views on some issues. I have seen people say they have.

Trolls can be obvious, but a light pink feminist doesn't deserve to be told to go elsewhere and leave.

I am genuinely pleased to see you back, dittany. But does this thread have to be about you? I understand how hurt you were. Perhaps you could start your own support thread (upon which I promise not to post, if that's best from your pov) or something. This board is definitely livelier with you - and other bruised regulars - around.

I feel the ongoing discussion about this board irt Mumsnet is valid:..

Are only the views of a certain flavour of feminism acceptable here, or do idealogical issues like the equalist/feminist question merit more space?
Should this board work harder to discuss sexuality vs sexualisation, and maybe bash out a few new viewpoints?
Is feminism compatible with capitalism and why/not?
I hardly dare mention that I still support the legalisation & regulation of sex trades. Thus, I hardly get to test my ideas in an informed environment.

... and so on.