You don't have to be feminist to post here, but it helps...

[MrsReasonable]

I've noticed that whenever a 'non-feminist' view is brought up, there are occasionally some posts along the lines of 'this is a feminist board, why come here if you aren't...', etc.

Genuine question - is this a feminist board, or a board about feminism? Obviously the majority of posters are feminist, but I'm not sure whether that is because feminists (surprise surprise) like discussing feminism, or because it is seen as a feminist 'safe haven'?

On AIBU, it's generally only the OP who is subject to a torrent of abuse and even then it's unlikely to follow her from thread to thread.

I think there's something about posting emotional, truly-held opinions on the fem board and having them torn apart and told that you are variously supporting the patriarchy, a rape apologist or whatever that is much more hurtful than most AIBU rucks. I have been really hurt and shocked by comments made to me from regulars on here that I don't feel I invited in any way by my own posting style.

I will keep posting here and be honest and hope that things improve or I learn to toe the line, one of the two

I am a frequent namechanger and make no apologies for it btw so sorry to those who have spent time discussing with me as I feel it's poss time for a clean start again, one of the reasons being to prevent fem posters bringing up stuff I've said on past threads. Hate the post, not the poster. Au revoir fems.

Just to add - I will answer any 101 question I see, just as I'll continue to describe emotional abuse on Relationships.

What I will not do - any more - is stick around when a more technically-correct feminist tells me I've got it wrong, have explained it wrong or similar. When such things happened before, they did take the form of personal attacks: if I've bothered to reply, it's rude to trash what I said when the better-informed poster could enhance my reply instead.

I like the diversity that seems (to me) to be evolving here, with medium-light threads alongside the heavy ones. I'm sad that I still feel scared to post on the 'heavy' ones, but I seem to have other options now, besides reading and silently fuming. I, for one, hope this continues to develop.

Oops last post from me I promise - Beach you are acknowledging that in your opinion, new posters should swot up before posting here - it's not up to you or anyone else to set minimum requirements for posting here, or anywhere else on MN. As others have said, it's an open forum - make a closed on elsewhere if you don't want to talk to anyone and everyone.

aibu is straightforward riposte and some aggro
here can be well if you knew and understood some key feminist principles,read a bit you wouldn't be so silly as to regurgitate and repeat ant-feminist sentiments....have you been drinking? there is very much a vibe of what is acceptable discourse and ehat isnt

no one needs to do any reading prior to contributing on mn
either on feminist or elsewhere.
it smacks of toe the line,reasd the books i read.in order to say same things

stripeybump
"Beach you are acknowledging that in your opinion, new posters should swot up before posting here - it's not up to you or anyone else to set minimum requirements for posting here, or anywhere else on MN."

i disagree - i think what stripey bump is saying is that people can't expect every conversation on an OPEN board to be appropriate for them to be involved in. if you don't get a conversation then would it not be more appropriate to just follow it, or to ask an open question, or to ask if anyone has a link to some appropriate background reading?

it's like scottishmummy's assertion that women lying about rape is a discussion worth having - if that's her view, fine - go have that discussion with someone who wants to talk to you about it, you can't demand that people posting on the feminist board have that discussion; they are as entitled to ignore/belittle as you are to post. that theme has come up repeatedly on these threads, that people feel entitled to have their posts responded to, their feelings acknowledged and their arguments agreed with (which when the argument goes along the lines of "but that's what normally happents" is really something!!).

no-one on here can set minimum standards for posting, no-one on here can demand that they are given respect they haven't earned. and i really think we're back to: HAVE SOME MANNERS!!

sorry should say beachin 2nd para... am tired!

people feel entitled to have their posts responded to .. and their arguments agreed - You mean like repeatedly re-quoting and going "You still haven't answered my point at 13:11", "If you can't understand what I'm saying, don't post here," etc?

I meant to agree: HAVE SOME MANNERS!! :)

Stripey I'm not saying that posters should or need to swot up before posting here. At least that is not what I mean to say.

Perhaps I'm not explaining this very well.

What I think is that feminism, like any subject really, can be discussed on different levels, depending on one's experience/knowledge/reading etc.

I think a lot of feminism is just grass roots observation of women's real life experience of the world - this, for me, is a great aspect of feminism because it is open to every woman. However, often, this grass roots observation and experience is denied or silenced (women lying about rape is one example). At this point, it becomes useful and interesting to apply feminist analysis and to discuss issues and tease out the patriarchal bullshit and normalization of female oppression. The discussion takes a more analytical, political and complex route.

For feminists to fully explore the above type of discussion it is helpful to have experienced that type of discussion before/to have read some feminist works/to have explored in depth feminist analysis/to be practised at laying aside mainstream thinking.

Of course no one has to do any of those things to join in here. However, if you are a person who hasn't done these things perhaps you should consider holding back on making judgement on those who have and the types of discussions they wish to engage in. Perhaps you should also hold back on declaring those discussions as mad/man hating/doing feminism wrong.

There are plenty of posters who get this and say that they have learnt a lot from this section and have altered their views as a result.

Those who claim that feminists are just too mean/patronising/rude/clever/high brow/serious/hairy/insane/man hating/humourless/lecturing/hysterical/shrill to have a decent conversation with, perhaps should consider that they just don't get on with feminism. Rather than expect feminists to change for them (ie just stop with the annoying feminism already.)

prior reading isnt requirement or recommended anywhere else on mn
and well some may aspire to it on feminist board it is not required and it sets another hurdle to spontaneous flowing participation

so in addition to demonstrable proof,and links one needs to read prior to participating

risible

BTW I do also post on a blog that is not welcoming of men or nonradical feminists.

It is a blog and the person who runs it is completely within their rights to dictate who is and who is not welcome to comment.

The point of the blog is not to have a space where everyone agrees with each other (indeed disagreement is common) but to have a space where feminism itself does not have to explained and defended over and over again. It is also to have a space where women can discuss radical feminism analysis with people who actually know what radical feminism is and who don't misinterpret it or misunderstand it (often wilfully) or wish to silence it.

The MN feminist section is positively fluffy in comparison BTW.

you have explained the pervasive toe the line vibe v well
and need to hold back before spontaneously participating and the assumption one will brush up to be taken seriously

'prior reading isnt requirement or recommended anywhere else on mn'

Have you been elsewhere on MN?!

beachcomber you are conceptualising mn wrongly

a space where women can discuss radical feminism analysis with people who actually know what radical feminism is

the mn fem board is none of those things.it doesn't set a knowledge criteria or assumption radical feminism will be discussed with like minded folk.at all

it is open forum,no prior reading or owt else required and certainly not a requirement to actually know discourse or ideologies

only mn requirements are
pc
pov
try adhere to site guidelines

SM I don't join in the discussions about evolution and feminist analysis of it because I don't know anything about the subject and I accept that my contributions will be of a beginner level that will bring the whole discussion down if others have to take time out to educate me on the basics.

So I read the thread and look up some of the terms/concepts it throws up. Maybe I'll join in next time now that I have developed a genuine interest in the subject and figured out some of what it is about.

Seems fair enough to me.

I don't expect every thread to be accessible to me or of interest to me.

Nobody told me that I should/needed to read up on the subject. It just seemed kinda obvious to me and something I would do for my own benefit.

you can set your own preference for posting.dont impose upon others to do prior reading before posting

So there are other places on the net where radical feminists can discuss and debate without interruptions? And all the other varieties and shades of feminist?

I ask simple questions on here, and have been given some useful recommendations of texts to read. But I don't wade into a complex and advanced discussion with daft questions, nor do I dismiss it with 'Sounds weird, you are all mad'
Just because I don't understand something fully doesn't give me the right to call the originator of the discussion rude names, or be dismissive of the others on the thread that seem to understand what she's going on about. Because that would be rude.
I've had some very interesting explanations given to me, and I've appreciated the time taken by the poster to try and clarify things when I haven't understood. I've also been 'shouted' at, because others have been impatient and incredulous at my opinions. But that's the same anywhere on the forum, some people get angry and snappy, some don't.
Same rules for everyone.

SM I wasn't taking about MN with that phrase.

I was talking about the sort of radical feminist blog that you made me think of when you posted this;

"if you want a safe space with parameters on discussion maybe wont find on an open discursive forum."

That's all.

given you feel need for prior reading is kinda obvious and enhances it for you
do you expect others to have read up prior to participation too?

Whatever SM.

I'm not trying to impose on others that they read this or that before contributing. I'm just suggesting that feminism is quite tricky to get one's head round sometimes and that if we want to have stimulating, challenging and interesting discussions, it helps to try to find something out about the subject.

I'm of the opinion that it is to some extent up to the individual to educate themselves. Of course often others will help out/explain things/link/recommend books too.

whatever,is that an answer?you seem to assert some prior reading is required, im asserting that's stifling and not spontaneous. and not what mn is about

i dont have a tattoo, participted in thread about them.with no prior reading

I wanted to post something but, tbh, feel this is getting really circular.

Suffice to say, I will carry on mostly lurking, dipping my toe into the lighter threads, sometimes misjudging and posting on something where the discussion is way out of my league and learning. I appreciate that MN feminist section exists. As it does lend an opportunity for posters like me to find my feet within feminism and whets my appetite for more learning, thought and discussion.

But sometimes (just sometimes) I am intimidated and feel like I would be told that I'm doing it wrong and if I were to be brave enough to ask why would be snapped at. It ain't gonna change anything about the way I behave on here, but there. That is how I feel.

I don't agree that people should have to be educated or well-read to post here. I don't know if you've noticed, SM, but there's a fair range of posters of different education/reading levels. It only becomes an issue if a poster starts jumping up and down saying 'how dare you all ignore me, I made a good point', when no-one else thinks it's a good point. No-one is obliged to go any further than that. But some people do, and suggest books or older threads or what have you. Whether you find that helpful or patronizing depends on you. But you cannot expect to force people to engage with you if they don't want to. And if you post the same thing time after time people will get really bored. This has nothing to do with feminism as a section, it happens all over MN.