You don't have to be feminist to post here, but it helps...

[MrsReasonable]

I've noticed that whenever a 'non-feminist' view is brought up, there are occasionally some posts along the lines of 'this is a feminist board, why come here if you aren't...', etc.

Genuine question - is this a feminist board, or a board about feminism? Obviously the majority of posters are feminist, but I'm not sure whether that is because feminists (surprise surprise) like discussing feminism, or because it is seen as a feminist 'safe haven'?

'I hoped someone would appreciate that Custardo. I'd also add that I don't think you shouldn't change anything about yours (except become a feminist of course, but we can work on that).'

claig[10.34]
although i agree with what you say i was pointing out[in my post]patticcally the rad fem bit.
there is elements of rad fem that are seen as extreem and misunderstood and instead of people asking/debating/discussing we get a kickin instead.
i myself have tryed to get into some discussions at times and have been met with hostility.[or ignored]there does seem to be a thing on here[at times]where any shade of feminism is ok except rad fem.
i actually feel that i cant post a lot of my views anymore.
sorry-i should of made myself clearer Claig.
i was posting from what i see on here as a rad fem.

sparky

Oh this is just BOLLOCKS!

What's with the feminism all of a sudden? I thought of myself as quite the feminist but it appears that I am not, because I don't always agree with other feminists and this thread - with women bashing each other because they don't hold the same opinions is about as un-feminist as you can get.

Feminism, unless I am very much mistaken, is about defending the right of women to have opinions of their own, to be free to make their own decisions. Yet women who describe themselves as feminists on this thread are busy telling other women how they should think and feel and then slagging them off when those women stand up and say "no I disagree".

That ain't feminism. That's just bollocks.

Yes, I understand what you are saying.
Rad fem is unlikely to be the majority view precisely because it is radical and wants radical change. The majority are usually conservative and against any radical change. But that is why open discussion and listening to all views is great, because it changes the opinions of people and does lead to change, even if it is not radical.

A lot of the feminists on here who shout the loudest on here seem a lot more oppressed than the rest of us tbh as there seems to be no room for movement on their stance They seem shut in a box with no room for manoevure or change. You are not liberated at all more confined by set beliefs

The only thing that changes is that women are left feeling more oppressed by other women who shout down at them from their highly placed platforms that they are failing the rest of womankind.

Feminism doesn't call for supporters to be radical. It calls for understanding and acceptance and that is something that radical feminists seem to be missing.

In your opinion, Roobs. I think you've got one end of the stick about it all and sound like a "choice feminist", and are being a bit rude to start shouting bollocks everywhere. Feminism doesnt mean that to all feminists- it involves more of a societal analysis.

I think you misunderstand 'radical' in the context of feminsm Rubarb0. It isn't synonymous with extremist.

Yeah my opinion so feel free to disagree, I shan't be shoving it down your throats

Define extremist please? And why are we putting feminism into categories now? 'Radical Feminism', 'Choice Feminism', 'Liberal Feminism', when you start categorising a school of thought then perhaps it shows that the school of thought is being chopped and changed to suit peoples needs and therefore has lost its purity?

I have read through a few pages and all I can see are women shouting down at other women who dare to disagree. I call this life. Nowt to do with feminism exactly but more about people's objection to being disagreed with. It seems more and more rare on Mumsnet to be able to have a different point of view without getting berated for it.

We all have different opinions on porn for example, with some women saying it liberates the female form and others saying it just defines women as sexual objects here for mens gratification. Which argument is radical? Why put a label onto it? You either disagree or you agree, why be radical about it? In my mind you are only radical if you have decided that only your pov is right and everyone else's is a waste of space, therefore the term radical is a convenient way to excuse stubborness and a certain close-mindedness.

Thanks Rhubarb0, I don't think I've ever been on a thread with you before but you've managed to make me feel shit. I'm sure it's not deliberate but when will people realize slagging off 'you radical feminists' or as a group is just as rude and hurtful as slagging off any other disparate set of people?

Excellent blog that explains most if your questions Rubarb0

And one about the differences in feminism in particular

Radical feminism, in my understanding, believes that for true equality to be achieved between the sexes the entire social system has to change. Radical min this context does not mean the same as our current understanding of 'fundamental' or extremist.

Oh, and I'm late with this but if we had a disclaimer, I don't think it should be telling people to go away to AIBU/Chat, that'd be crap IMO and just put people's backs up.

I don't see why anyone shouldn't be able to post here. If someone posts and asks a question that's been asked a hundred times, that should be fine. But, they might not get a reply or it might be a bit hurried. It happens in S&B, they get floods of people asking to help them find shoes to go with a dress, and some people get fed up but others seem to enjoy replying to the basic stuff.

I think with legit posters, not trolls, the problems are that people get mistaken for stirrers because there are questions that come up again and again, like 'but porn is just natural' or 'do you all hate men then'. If we had a disclaimer saying something like 'Please respect the opinions of other posts and the woman-friendly ethos of the board, and be aware some topics have already been discussed so you may want to search old posts', would that be any good? The 'woman-friendly ethos' would give all of us legitimate cause to report the very tedious trolls who just want to tell us women are innately horrible - I doubt any of us want to see those around! And if there were a disclaimer, maybe we could get into the habit of just linking back to old threads when people ask questions that have been done to death?

To be honest I don't think it is a problem when someone posts a done-to-death question, but it is annoying when they get cross at being ignored or told it's been recently discussed and is off-topic ... people who react like that in AIBU/Chat get flamed, and rightly. It's crap when people go off at a tangent from the OP (I know how crap because I do it all the time ). So maybe if the disclaimer said something about starting a new thread if you want to discuss an issue that's been brought up but isn't relevant to the OP? Would that work?

Excellent, we're rotund, red, and peppery.

Rhubarb has a point that if we define ourselves as radical, that automatically indicates we think other kinds of feminism are digressing from the main point. If someone finds that offensive it's tricky, because there's no way to sugar the pill, it's a basic difference of opinion.

That said, with a few exceptions I have no idea who thinks of themselves as radical or not, and I don't see what's wrong with being a feminist and a socialist or a feminist who's more involved with Gay Rights or chicken keeping. Why is it a problem unless you want to be really academic about derivations of a political movement?

LRD[11.59]
[if we had a disclaimer..........................................................]
yep-i agree.

sparky

LRD quit the victim stance, it's been tried before.

All feminists would agree that the social system has to change so I don't see the difference between feminism as a whole and radical feminism. We all push for change and we all agree that women's rights are still not equal and that women and girls are still exploited. Even those who do not call themselves feminists would agree with that.

But what we disagree on is the way to go about those changes. Pushing and calling for change does not make you radical, it makes you an activist.

And I would say dittany that those harsh experiences can often taint your view of the world. You have to understand that some women have never suffered at the hands of men so they are less likely to understand your call for action. And some women have experienced both and are more likely to understand both povs.

There is a danger when you base your opinions on your own experiences alone that you alienate yourself from others who have not had those experiences. The world is far from black and white.

And I still fail to see how vehemently disagreeing with other women so that a thread merely becomes a platform for whoever can shout the loudest will do a single bit of good for your cause.

Still, no time to debate as I'm off to bake a lovely Victoria Sponge for the WI in our local village

LRD your other posts make much more sense

It's not a 'victim stance'. I feel upset when you say we're all bitches. Is that surprising?

I don't give a toss who calls themselves 'radical' or 'feminist' or whatever. I just want to chat. There were some nice people on Custardo's thread in chat who I've never seen on here, and we were having a good talk about it all. I'd like to see more of that. Every time someone posts 'all the feminists are bitches and I avoid the section', you're messing it up for us. It's not a 'victim stance', it's telling you not to be such a bully.

Oh crap, I posted that without refreshing the thread. Thanks for teh comment about my other posts. I'm sorry I did the 'bully' thing, it's a crap and predictable response to 'victim stance'.

I''m off to talk about interior decor on the thread about Reject being banned.

What I thought was that you have radical feminism and liberal feminism.

Radical feminism says tear up everything and start again, and (my personal feeling) is it will appeal to people who would like radical solutions to other things as well eg those who think capitalism is a disaster

Liberal feminists say let's work within the system that we have to improve things for women incrementally. Or are they not called liberal feminists? Anyway the other sort thinks that. So things like work to improve the representation of women in parliament over time

In practice most people who post here are radical about some things and liberal about others? Or maybe it's the difference between big thinking and practical action. Radical feminism is great to talk about but in the here and now the actions that we take are mainly restricted to the "a bit at a time" stuff.

it also makes me sad to see dittany and lenin fighting.

This is basically about differences in posting styles, is that right? This whole argument?

more than posting styles SQ, I think. Finger was poised over the 'hide' button for a while because of it.