You don't have to be feminist to post here, but it helps...

[MrsReasonable]

I've noticed that whenever a 'non-feminist' view is brought up, there are occasionally some posts along the lines of 'this is a feminist board, why come here if you aren't...', etc.

Genuine question - is this a feminist board, or a board about feminism? Obviously the majority of posters are feminist, but I'm not sure whether that is because feminists (surprise surprise) like discussing feminism, or because it is seen as a feminist 'safe haven'?

'people are more horrified by being told they sound anti-single mums for example than they are about realising their views can be construed as such'

Sometimes people's views are misconstrued and those accusing them are wrong. That's true for "anti single mum" accusations as well as anti-feminist accusations. However, these things will inevitably occur because we all have different opinions. Sometimes the accusations are justified and sometimes they aren't. It's a matter of judgement. Yes, some posters will be put off posting here in case they put a foot wrong and go against other posters' views. But that will always happen in any forum. That is an inevitable consequence of robust debate. I don't think we should tell people to change their posting styles. If someone has said something out of order, then MNHQ can delete the post.

'Surely we can accept there is some validity to some of the comments some of the time.'

Yes we can, but do you accept the validity of some of the comments that go against your view?

well after 17 pages im still not getting it.
i have diffrent views on sn/disability than a lot of people and this is something im forever fighting in rl.
because of my views i very rarely go into the sn section on here.
reason being...its a established board and [by the looks of it]most have diffrent views[than me]on there...this is fine...they aint wrong and neither am i.however it would be very wrong of me to pitch up there and start telling people that they are wrong/theyre thinking is wrong ect ect.
i will rarely pop in to try and help someone without giving my views but other than that i keep away.
but this is exactly whats happening here....people are coming along and we are having to defend ourselves for our views......its wrong.
i feel that the bottom line is...this is a established feminist board and paticcally the rad fems keep getting it in the neck.....we re here to stay...
either discuss/listen/learn/debate or go elsewhere.
i agree with herebebollox[9.59]

sparky

I think this is where the fundamental difference lies. What is engagement?
People engage in different ways. People are engaging even if they disagree with others, because they are giving their true opinions. Engagement is not appeasement if you fundamentally disagree with someone's views. But hopefully, you are capable of correctly judging where the disagreement stems from i.e. is it really anti-feminist or isn't it.

sparky, I disagree with that.

Feminism is political and it is open and of interest to all women on this board, whether they are rad fems or not. That is why posters are drawn here, because it is important to them and affects all aspects of their lives. They are free to post their opinions even if they disagree with the consensus, but they must be adult enough to accept that their views will be challenged.

' the most pointless energy wasting battles I've seen on here this year were those four, thousand post threads all about "Mumsnet feminists are big meanies, yr doing it wong".
If we're talking about energy sapping, distractions from feminism - those were perfect examples. They certainly made me not want to be a part of this section any more. I don't know if other people found them a positive contribution, maybe they could say.'

I found them interesting because there was a huge range of complaints and comments, and many of them were based on misunderstandings of what sort of discussions happen here, and some were very anti-feminist and blatantly dismissive of everything. But others were from posters who were puzzled why a board they thought they would feel comfortable contributing to had left them feeling angry, misquoted and battered.
I don't think anyone has the right to tell feminists to shut up, or that the right to debate should not exist, or that there should be 'no calling out MRAs, not saying that something is anti-feminist, no calling out misogynist.'
This board is a feminist one, so its purpose and reason for existence are fairly clear.
So why get involved with a thread saying 'The MN feminists are all meanies'?
Why not just ignore it completely and allow them to grumble on without your contribution? Especially if engaging makes you so angry and stressed that you want to leave the whole thing behind, including all the areas that you have enjoyed. Dismiss it as a set of stupid and ill-informed attitudes that are not worth your attention and time.
That is not the same as saying that feminists should be quiet and conciliatory and tip-toe around subjects so as not to cause offence.

POG, because it is not as easy as that for those that are being attacked, including by some who they thought they were in agreement with.

The board should be inclusive, as LeninGrad syas, but that means inclusive of all opinions, including the so-called "meanies". That is why these discussions are divisive, because they are attempting to exclude and silence people.

If you hold extremely strong views on a subject and tend to be robust in debate, then other people will call you names. In any sphere of discussion, but the more emotive, the more intense the responses.
It may be upsetting, but it is usually the consequence of holding unequivocally to your values and beliefs.

I do agree that people should not harass radical feminists for holding radical feminist views, it's illogical to take issue with it.

'Calling people names isn't a "consequence" it's a choice people make to have a go at other people.'

I agree with that too, how could I not?
But it is what happens, however much more beneficial it would be for people to not have a go.

dittany Mon 29-Aug-11 10:44:51
Oh and my responsbility for my behaviour is that I'm changing nothing about mine.

'If you hold extremely strong views on a subject and tend to be robust in debate, then other people will call you names.'

I am sure that Mary Wollstonecraft was called a lot of names in her day, but hopefully not by those on her side.

and visa versa of course

'Actually it's not what happens. Lots of people seem to manage to cope with strongly held radical feminist opinions without calling the owner of those opinions names.'

Is that people on the inside, or people on the outside?
Because I've heard and seen a lot of name-calling over the years against feminism and other movements by those on the fringes, or those opposed to the ideas being discussed.