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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Does penetration = presumption of power/control?

756 replies

skrumle · 17/08/2011 10:53

Was chatting with my H last night and mentioned the Romeo and Juliet law in Ireland that's been discussed on here a few times. Anyway, when I asked if he thought it was reasonable his immediate answer was "no". I then asked him: if our son was gay, and started a conversation about a sexual experience that he was unhappy/uncomfortable about would he be more likely to feel that our son had been forced/co-erced if he was the one penetrated rather than penetrating and got a Confused in reply...

I have to be honest, when I read the original thread on here my automatic view was that to protect girls over boys like this was to deny the fact that girls enjoy sex too, almost like taking a step back. When I read the thread fully though and thought about the implications for girls I probably did start to think that girls should have more protection than boys.

So, should there be a presumption that penetration equals a greater degree of control? So two heterosexual 15yos - greater responsibility lies with the boy to ensure that this is what both of them want?

OP posts:
SardineQueen · 19/08/2011 09:26

Wamster your analogy is flawed. If it was the case that in drunken car accidents men always survived and women always died, people would be asking questions, don't you think?

I just don't think that analogy holds up at all.

I also don't get the rest of your post as I didn't think this thread was about consent but about penetration/power = is there a relationship and (interesting for me) that the way patriarchy defines sex is almost entirely based on male experience (as long as they don't have any find of erectile difficulties or orgasm difficulties) and not on female. That is very interesting.

SardineQueen · 19/08/2011 09:29

Stripey this bit "A man is more powerful during PIV / reproductive sex, so we fetishise female submission in sexual behaviour, and in the rest of life." I have problems with.

Firstly as mentioned depending on position the woman might be more powerful during piv sex. It is not a give that the man has control (assuming everyone is acting consensually and not roleplaying a submissive role for the woman).

Also I think that female submission is a specific sexual fantasy while many men (and women) also fantisise about the woman being dominant.

Wamster · 19/08/2011 09:32

What questions would they be asking?
The only question I would be asking is why women then got drunk (has sex) in the first place given the high chance of death?
There are only one of two answers:
a, they are FORCED into getting drunk (forced into sex)
b, they do it of their own free will (agree to it)

If the answer is 'a', then it is wrong and should definitely be challenged.
If the answer is 'b' then well it is of her own doing. I feel sad for her, but I am not going to blame anybody else.

SardineQueen · 19/08/2011 09:32

Wamster also I find it strange that you have interpreted this thread to mean that people want everyone to stop having consensual sex.

It's just a conversation about sex in our society and what it means (if anything). The way it is looked at and described and so on.

Most of the posters on the thread have said they are heterosexual and like penetrative sex so why you think everyone wants it stamped out is beyond me.

VictorGollancz · 19/08/2011 09:33

Wamster, no-one wants to stop anyone having sex. I have no idea how you got that from a thread in which almost everyone piles in and says how much they like it.

Feminism is not just about ensuring that women have the right to choose sex. Feminism is also about examining the structures of inequality that we can't help but live in. So the fact that we define sex by penetration is interesting; the fact that actually, the only 100% way not to become pregnant is to not have PIV sex, yet we all have PIV sex, is interesting.

Pointing out an inequality is not the same thing as telling women not to particpate in it.

SardineQueen · 19/08/2011 09:36

Wamster sorry I've lost you I've probably not read the thread properly.

What is your 9.32 in response to?

AyeRobot · 19/08/2011 09:36

I don't think anyone's moaning, unless you count the noise I made when I read SQ's sentence of "en" words.

In your DD analogy, are you using the tree-crashing as equivalent to pregnancy?

Wamster · 19/08/2011 09:39

My post is in response to the opening post about Romeo and Juliet law.
Yes, tree-crashing=pregnancy.

AyeRobot · 19/08/2011 09:43

How is a boy not becoming pregnant a matter of luck?

SardineQueen · 19/08/2011 09:49

Yes that was my point ayerobot. If in the tree crashing the male cannot die and never dies, and the woman can and often does... Then of course people would be concerned.

A boy not becoming pregnant is of course not a matter of luck.

SardineQueen · 19/08/2011 09:50

wamster sorry I'm still lost. I can't see how your 9.32 post relates to the OP?

I can't find where it fits in at all but I'm probably missing something.

Wamster · 19/08/2011 09:56

The idea that girl should have greater protection than boys? Which seems to mean that boys are somehow punished while girls are not via Romeo and Juliet law.

My take is that if the sex is agreed to by both parties and they are roughly of same age (I do not mean a 15- year- old girl and a 30- year- old man, I mean a pair of 15-year-olds) just because the girl gets pregnant, does not mean this should be a case for punishment of either party.

Educate and protect them both so they can both make an informed choice.

SardineQueen · 19/08/2011 09:57

"Even if women do bear the brunt of contraceptive failure, as long as they have chosen freely to have the sex that led to the pregnancy, then I can't get angry about it.

I just don't see the issue. Feminism is about ensuring that women have the right to have their decision to have sex or not taken seriously, it's not to decide for women if those decisions are wise or not.

I think it very dull for a woman to have sex without taking precautions if she does not want to get pregnant, but it's her choice."

If you are talking about the so-called romeo and juliet law you need to remember:

  • Underage sex is involved
  • Abortion is not available in Ireland
  • The original complaint that led to the original thread was that the sex was not consensual, he was eventually prosecuted for having underage sex presumably as that was easier to prove
  • In fact the abortion / contraception thing was a bit of a red herring on that case because it was anal sex. Which for me was a bit of an eyebrow-raiser as while obviously some young girls have consensual anal sex, it is probably much less than consensual vaginal sex. Add to that that the original complaint involved non consent and you have a quite different picture of the so called romeo and juliet case
SardineQueen · 19/08/2011 09:57

xposts please read the points I made re that case

SardineQueen · 19/08/2011 10:00

"Dull" is an odd choice of word for a woman having sex without contraception who does not wish to conceive.

I can think of lots of words for it but dull isn't one of them.

Also interested that you equate sex to pregnancy. Which is one of the main points of the thread. There are lots of different sorts of sex, only one of the can result in pregnancy. Yet the one you (and most) people mean when they talk about sex is PiV. Does this mean that gay men and women are not having sex? Quick get the pope on the line he will be so pleased Grin

SardineQueen · 19/08/2011 10:03

I have been googling the case to try and find it but no luck. After I've done my work I'll have a hunt for the original thread (if you want?)

VictorGollancz · 19/08/2011 10:03

Plus, SardineQueen, most posters on the thread have posted a liking for PIV sex, but I'll bet they're also having lots of different sorts of sex because PIV is highly unlikely to bring about orgasm in a woman. Not that porn, television programmes, or bonkbusters admit that, of course!

Wamster · 19/08/2011 10:11

It is funny that you should mention the Pople, because it has not escaped my attention that this law is from Ireland, a country which, in my opinion, has not got a great track record when it comes to women's rights.

Whereas in Britain- where we respect a women's right to choose abortion if she wishes it (thank god), that divorce is seen as far less as a stigma, the cases of conensual underage sex between two minors is greeted by the public- and the law- as being a matter of sadness and regret rather than one that needs punishment of either party.

SardineQueen · 19/08/2011 10:12

I have found the thread Wamster and you were on it anyway so you know all about it!

I wanted to check teh consent thing (it was a while ago).

In fact the reporting was ambiguous as to whether the sex had been consensual or otherwise, the idea that maybe it was non-consensual was speculation - the actual document was not clear.

Wamster · 19/08/2011 10:13

And, yes, 'dull' is the word I would find appropriate. It is a bit stupid for a woman (and indeed a man) to have unprotected sex if they are fertile and not expect pregnancy to occur.

SardineQueen · 19/08/2011 10:15
Confused

This thread ins't about that law though (please god).

It's about ideas around power and dominance and sex and all the rest of it.

SardineQueen · 19/08/2011 10:16

So dull as in stupid rather than dull as in boring.

That was how my gran used the word dull I am surprised to see it used that way on MN!

Next you will be asking me why all these happy (gay) people aren't having sex if it's defined as PiV Grin

Original poster
skrumle · 19/08/2011 10:21

i really don't have time to reply properly at the mo (valuable shopping time being wasted here while my mum babysits DS) but wamster would a more appropriate analogy not be:
2 15yos get drunk together
they both choose to get in a car
the boy drives
if the car hits a tree only the girl dies
?

but you would only blame the girl for this situation and would have no interest in looking to blame anybody else?

OP posts:
SardineQueen · 19/08/2011 10:22

We could try a different tack?

Wamster why do you think that "sex" refers to PiV with the man having an orgasm, rather than any other sexual activity involving orgasms?

jennyvarnishessthewoodwork · 19/08/2011 10:24

Agree; flawed analogy.

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