Heteromonogamy is really just another way to waste women's time, isn't it?

[solidgoldbrass]

All those books, articles, courses on how to Find The One, Make Him Commit, Keep It Exciting - keeping women occupied with the Perfect Relationship means they don't have time to do anything interesting with their lives.

[Ormirian]

Same here rivin, same here!

[TheFrozenMBJ]

I've been thinking...

It's not monogamy that's the problem though, is it? It's society's expectation and the idealisation of a M/F monogamous relationship and the way in which it is expected to play out which is the issue here.there are plenty of gay and lesbian monogamous relationships that work and many people do desire monogamy (I for one do) but the demonisation (for want of a better term) of other choices particularly women who choose otherwise is what we are really talking about.

The fact that many women do not feel free to live outside this type of relationship in the same way that men do. I mean there are many men out there that choose to remain single and father children, or engage in serial monogamous relationships or even unofficial polygamy (in having long term mistresses a d other families) etc and those choices are condoned to a greater or lesser extent.

But women who choose to remain single or have children outside a monogamous relationship are vilified.

[Ormirian]

There is a current thread about ex-wives that is case in point. It makes a traditional marriage sound as if it's all about possession and exclusion.

[EricNorthmansMistressOfPotions]

Handdived, yes and men also want/need a woman to raise those children and do the majority of the donkey work involved in having a happy family life.

[Himalaya]

As I've said I am not waving the flag for heteromonogamy/marriage being the only way, or advocating that anyone should put their life on hold waiting for 'the one' (or fooling themselves that 'the bloke who clearly isn't the one' is a frog prince).

I agree, with SGB that having a child should be a commitment to the child which involves treating the child's mother with kindness, fairness and courtesy and that we should work on changing men's behaviour so that they take more responsibility for contraception if they don't want to become fathers, and put more effort into fatherhood when they do.

I just don't think this is compatible with the idea that 'if women are ready to have children [there is no good reason why they should] wait to find a man ready and willing to do so?' - in other words if you want to have a baby it is perfectly OK to do so with a man who you know is not ready and willing to be a dad.

If there is no moral fact that a child's relationship with their biological dad, and any half-sibs is significant (and therefore worth thinking about as consenting adults before you TTC) then I don't think you can argue that dads should put more effort into fatherhood -- surely they could just turn around and say 'well thats just your values'

(...I know that in practice, people don't think things through, or get to know their partners quite so rationally - but as a principle the two seem incompatible).

(Rivinside - which bit of the dad bit don't you agree on?)

[TheFrozenMBJ]

But if you don't expect him to be a dad, it there any problem?

[sparky680]

yep-i agree SAF.[13.58]
yet again-mans ownership of women.

[GothAnneGeddes]

TFMBJ - It's more then just the wishes of the mother here though. The child will not have a father. How good or bad that is is open to interpretation, but like Himalaya, I'm not comfortable with pretending it's no big deal.

Monogamy is far less time consuming for me then polyamory or swinging would be. The thought of having more then one romantic relationship sounds like far too much hard work and I wouldn't fancy having to scour the internet/ go to a swingers club everytime I fancied having sex.

I agree that the fairytale image of monogamy is a myth in many ways, the truth is most people are monogamous because it is practical.

[Riveninside]

Doesnt marriage give you legal protection?
I dont care whether i am married or not, long as dh does all the work

[GothAnneGeddes]

Not sure about that Lenin. In the US particularly, there are a quite a few donor conceived folks out there who are very unhappy that they will never know their biological heritage. This blog is a pretty good insight: cryokidconfessions.blogspot.com/p/about-this-blog.html

And just google 'Transracial adoption' to find another subset of people who are none too thrilled about being disconnected from their biological heritage.

It's easy for people not in that situation to say it's no big deal, but some those who are say something else.

[fluffles]

I think that actually it's a very long time since society has been so open to the idea of having children as a single person, or with somebody of the same sex via annonymous donor, or with somebody with whom you are not in a romantic relationship, or after breakdown of a romantic relationship.

All of these set ups are currently now modelled in our real life, films, tv, books... and although not 'the norm', there are many areas of society in which these models are utterly accepted.

For me monogamy is about knowing that bringing up children is one of life's hardest jobs ever and wanting to be really really bloody picky about who i am willing to share that job with. There is no doubt in my mind that being a single parent is a hard road, and on the other hand, i would find polygamy very tricky as i always find even in my friendships, that 1:1 relationships easier than trios or quads where somebody is always 'left out' and there is just so much more complication.

[GothAnneGeddes]

I think the 'not commiting men' are at fault. A downside to family planning is that they are allowed to get away with having their cake and eating it. Many threads on here where the women is ready and the man isn't and it's still the woman who has to carry on taking contraception.

[TheFrozenMBJ]

But if a man does want a relationship with his children and does want to 'be a dad' it is a completely different situation than what Himalaya describes though.

She's talking about woman waiting for a man to be ready so that the children never hear from him that 'he didn't want them'. Men can't have it both ways. They can't expect to be hold women to ransom with the expectation that they want to be dads

[TheFrozenMBJ]

It's all very well saying that it is the non-committal man who is at fault, but what comfort are women supposed to take from that? Roll their eyes up to the heavens and sigh, accepting men's inability to commit as determining her life?

[GothAnneGeddes]

Thanks SaF, I am aware that people do make different arrangements. My point was in response to Lenin who was querying the role of knowing your biological heritage.

The points I referenced are very much part of what is going on in the world nowadays, you may not like to hear them, but they do exist, so less of the patronising please.

[Himalaya]

SAF - I agree with you, there are many kinds of arrangements that adults can make that involve two people being ready and willing to become parents on some kind of mutually agreed basis (whether as sperm donor, co-parent, partner or whatever).

But assuming that having unprotected sex = ready and willing to be a parent, seems unrealistic, no?