Heteromonogamy is really just another way to waste women's time, isn't it?

[solidgoldbrass]

All those books, articles, courses on how to Find The One, Make Him Commit, Keep It Exciting - keeping women occupied with the Perfect Relationship means they don't have time to do anything interesting with their lives.

[TheFrozenMBJ]

I'm quote willing to admit that I've been brainwashed too .

Just lucky it's turned out well for me.

[SheCutOffTheirTails]

I think one way that it wastes women's time is that it creates the cultural (and moral?) expectation that a woman must jump through the monogamy hoop before having children.

A lot of women are having babies in their late 30s because it took until then to "find a man who would commit" or to convince their long-term boyfriend to agree to TTC.

It's a new way of controlling women's fertility - you may have the pill, sperm banks, child benefit and tax credits, but you have to wait for something you have no control over (meeting someone who wants to marry you - and let's be clear, it's that they are willing to marry you that matters. If you ask for commitment, you are crazy and desperate) before reproducing.

So you are in a race against time - have children before your fertility runs out, but not until you've got through the "find a man who will commit to you forever without prompting" obstacle course.

[BertieBotts]

Agree Belle!

Nothing to add at the minute but this is very interesting to me.

[HerBeX]

Stormingly brilliant point SheCutOffTheirTails. The propaganda for lurve, monogamy, "soul mate" one and only, life partner, goes alongside the lies that the media constantly tell about how outcomes for the children of single parents are shit compared to those from two parent families, when what we know is that the only reason outcomes are shit, is because of money. So if we can make it as difficult for women to function in society as mothers without the co-operation and financial assistance of a man, we can control their fertility much more effectively.

[Himalaya]

SheCutofTheirTails

(whilst agreeing that magazines are generally shit to sell you stuff you don't need etc...)

I think it is odd to think of seeking to have children with someone who wants to be a co-parent with you as an arbitrary bit of cultural conditioning put in place to control women's fertility.

This doesn't have to mean big white dress, the best day of your life blah blah blah (and yes i agree that people are wasting their time with this, but I guess others would argue that they are enjoying it, so why not...)

Why is "find a man who would commit" in scare quotes? It is a bloody big commitment, bringing another human being into the world, and not something to go into lightly. I think with divorce pretty common most people recognise that you may not in reality be commiting to each other forever, but you should be committing to your children forever, which means getting along in some kind of collaborative relationship forever.

[EricNorthmansMistressOfPotions]

Morning! I was just thinking about this over the weekend. I grew up in a 2 parent M/F family with traditional roles (though they are not traditionalists) and am the only daughter. I was thinking about the relationships I had when younger, before I met STBXH, and what I put up with compared to what I would put up with now. I'm not talking abusive, just a bit uncaring, disrespectful, boring, crap sex and what have you - and why? Because I believed my life's path would be find satisfying job, find man, have babies. I assumed I had to give any man that I liked enough to see more than once the chaANCE TO BE MY (oops) life partner, and when it was obvious they weren't, I still hung on a little longer just in case

I really believed that some man would materialise and be 'the one' - and I should pursue any potential relationship in case it was....and maybe I was a bit scared I wouldn't find 'the one' and wouldn't get to have children.

Is that what it comes down to? I'm exiting a 6 year relationship now out of which I have a son. Looking back with proper honesty I always had doubts it was right, but he was offering what I thought I wanted, and honestly I truly did want the baby at the timne I had him - so should I have stayed single and done it on my own? But how can a 25 year old make that decision? The judgement from society and family/friends would be huge. I'm not gay, I'm was young, why would I get donated sperm? A relationship, even an imperfect one, is 'better' in the eyes of the world than that...unless there is a 'reason/excuse' for a woman to go it alone....

Goodness me it's tricky. I actually feel liberated by the fact that I have my son, because even if I never have another child I have procreated, which means I can and will judge any man/relationship under completely different criteria and can enter into what I want with my eyes open and no agenda.

[HandDivedScallopsrgreat]

Do you think that part of the pressure for women to enter monogamous relationships is because it is actually men that need that in order to have children and a relationship with them? A woman will always be able to have a relationship with her child as she gives birth to them. She is under no obligation (other than from society) to inform or involve the father at any stage.

[Himalaya]

SAF - I don't want to get back into the cultural vs biological debates - like most things its probably a bit of both. The point is that having a relationship with your parents, not having your parents in massive disagreement over how you are raised etc.. does matter to kids. Its not a completely arbitrary thing. This may be cultural, but it still matters.

I don't think it matters at all whether your parents got married in a big white dress and all the rest of it. But it does matter, say (as is the situation of one friend of mine) if you live in the same town as your dad, you know who he is etc.. but he never acknowledges you or had any commitment towards you, and you find out gradually that you have lots of half-siblings around town but these relationships are never supported. That is a pretty shit situation, albeit even if your mum is a great single parent, and she has loads of friends and family and community etc...

I don't think heteromonogamy is the only way by any stretch, but I do think that when two people have a baby together they should both recognise that it is a commitment -- it may be a commitment to be an anonymous sperm donor, or a non-romantically linked co-parent or a couple or whatever - but the point is it is an adult commitment and the terms need to be clear. Marriage is one way of laying out those terms, but not the only way.

You ask 'if women are ready to have children why should they have to wait to find a man ready and willing to do so?' - I think the answer is because no child should have to hear (or understand) from their dad - 'I didn't want to have you in the first place.'

[HerBeX]

"not having your parents in massive disagreement over how you are raised etc.. does matter to kids."

But monogamy doesn't guarantee that. How to raise the kids is one of the three most quoted causes of arguments among couples.

[Riveninside]

I dont see how monogamy wastes anyones time? Surely singles or those with multiple partners need more energy to shag lotsmof different people, negotiate over children or go out to find someone to shag?

[solidgoldbrass]

I'm perfectly aware that some people have heteromonogamous relationships that make them happy. Just as some people find happiness in (for instance) running marathons, collecting stamps or playing the piano to world class standards. It's not that I want to stop people who enjoy heteromonogamy enjoying it, just to point out that it is not compulsory and an awful lot of the time it's a shit deal for women. First you have to find the man, then you have to catch the man, then you have to keep pleasing the man and also policing him so no breach of monogamy can occur.

I do agree that having a child is a commitment, and I do think that more men should understand that having a child means making a commitment to the child which involves treating the child's mother with kindness, fairness and courtesy whatever the romantic/sexual aspect of the partnership is. But I don't think the way to fix the issue of 'deadbeat dads' is to pressure women even harder to engage in heteromonogamy ie knock themselves out to please men - it's to work on changing men's behaviour so that they take more responsibility for contraception if they don't want to become fathers, and put more effort into fatherhood when they do.

[Riveninside]

I dont agree Himalaya. About the dad bit

[Riveninside]

Doesnt non monogamy mean locating the Partner, wooing the oartner etc etc as well SGB? Make up and small talk and the same sort of stuff?

Im monogomous (too knackered for anything else) and i dont find myself policing and pleasing the man.

[Ormirian]

Yus it is!

Just because a minority of people find a partner for life doesn't mean that everyone can or is stupid tolerant enough to make it work.

Long-term monogamy is hard bloody work and IME not enough people are prepared to make that sort of commitment and compromise, and why should they? What most people want is the passion and intensity ...but they want it forever. Marriage is an economic and supremely practical arrangment that works very well on that level. It can have phases of passion and intensity, but most of it is carried out in an atmospere of mild affection and tolerance - if you are lucky!

That sounds likes really inviting now doesn't it

[WoTmania]

It's a difficult one - I'm married and happy but then, at weekends and in the evenings DH does a fair share of childcare/household stuff (which my family find incomrehensible) as he feels that looking after 3 DC is hard work and appreciates that if I'm looking after then it's a struggle to get any housework done. I wouldn't say I've been sucked into the idea that ther is 'the one' out there somewhere. I just think that if you can work in partnership it's easier all round - he gets cooked for, I get to lie in at weekends

But this doesn't always follow and I have a real problem with this from Himalaya: ' You ask 'if women are ready to have children why should they have to wait to find a man ready and willing to do so?' - I think the answer is because no child should have to hear (or understand) from their dad - 'I didn't want to have you in the first place.'

The problem is that many men seem to feel that they can string women along on the promise of 'children one day'. I feel it's a bit of having their cake and eating it - they want the relationship - a woman to go out with, have sex with and if cohabiting/married to all the housework but they don't want to have children.
given the choice between having children on my own or waiting for 'Mr Right' adn possibly never being able to have them? I'd go for sperm donor everytime.

*apologies, I'm not feeling very coherent today so that probably made no sense

with regards to the OP - not always but in our society probably, yes. It's just a way of making sure women with children are 'looked after' and are not a 'burden' on societly/the state IMO.

[Ormirian]

Well exactly! You just go out there and find yourself a man

[Riveninside]

Suits me ormirian but i am knackered. If Hugh Jackman arrived at the door he woild get a cup of cocoa