Separatist Feminism - Thread Two

[LRDTheFeministDragon]

A second thread to discuss separatist feminism.

If you clicked on this thread and want to know more, there's a wiki link for the basics here:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separatist_feminism

On the previous thread there is more discussion, including links to some articles about existing separatist communities, and some personal experiences from MNers who live in a separatist or partially separatist environment. If you're interested in more discussion of separatism, what it might mean for feminists, and what women's spaces can do for us, please come back and join me so this OP doesn't sit unanswered like a lemon!

Link to thread no. 1 (and kudos to the lovely VictorGollancz who started it all off) here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1259519-Separatist-Feminism

Separatist feminism wasn't/isn't really about individuals feeling happier with their personal lifestyle choices; much more about rejecting the social system that drains women's energy into making men (and children) comfortable at the expense of women. All-women spaces have a different energy, not necessarily the inclusive supportive ideal we might hope for.

I think Kissass makes some very interesting points and I think in the main I agree: ie childbearing is a biologically imposed role on the female sex while childrearing is a socially imposed role on the female gender.

Thus in a post-patriarch world some women (like SaF, I think, but please correct me if I am misrepresenting you) want to take on the child-rearing responsabilties as primary carer whatever the circumstances; some women (who are in the position to choose) would be happy to see their partner do this (ie be a primary carer). Some women (eg me) are happy for (and are in the position to organise) primary care-giving divided between them and their partner as equally as best serves both their needs.

I feel the need to point out that this is not in anyway judgemental. As far as I am concerned none of the divisions are better than others. They are all simply possible.

Hmmm

I can see the attraction of lving like the average divorced man.

It would be great.

But for me what would militate against it, is the notion that it wouldn't be best for my children and that they may suffer if I lived like that.

So that thought would ruin my enjoyment of the freedom and convenience and so I wouldn't be happy anyway.

I think that on the whole, women put their children's welfare first. And that alone would stop separatism from becoming a mass movement and would only ever be a luxury stop gap measure, like retreats for busy working people are.

Which makes it even more odd that there is so much hostility to it.

Sorry I mean separatism where you stop doing the childcare role.

I just think most women wouldn't give that up voluntarily.

Well, no. Seeing your dc once a week or once a fornight wouldn't be my idea of fun either. But I seriously do not want to be a stay ay home parent; I would do it if I had no choice, but I don't think I would actively choose this role.
Before I met my current DP I was not fussed on children. I no real strong preference for being a mother, nor an opposition to the idea. My DP on the other had has always wanted children. He convinced me as it were and now I am glad he did. However, the whole childcare thing was carefully discussed first. I expressed my desire to continue working and general unwillingness to be a sahp and so did he. We decided to both work and avail ourselves of the free nursery places that the Mexican state awards (some) working mothers. Once my dc are at school we will have to pay for childminding, obviously. Even if I were to become a single mum I would like to continue this arrangement unless financially impossible. I wouldn't want to give up seeing my dc only on weekends; but then again I can imagine that neither would my DP so we would have to come to a better arrangement.
I think my unwillingness to be a sahp is also linked to the fact that here I have no family nor close friends with children and thus no option of availing upon babysitting and/or social meet ups with other parents and children. Here it's me or DP and the dc in the afternoons or holidays. It is relentless and extremely tiring looking after the dc when it is always up to me/DP to keep them busy and happy. I always love it when we go to DP's village or my home when my dc also get to play with other children and let me sit down for a cuppa every now and then. When I have been tbhe fulltime carer in holidays for 7 days (when DP was away for work for example) I have realised how hard it is to be a single mum and how much I admire people who are able/ready to do this on a continual basis.
I think what I am trying to say with all this waffle is that I can understand why divorced parents could be attracted to the seeing dc only at weekends type role, especially if they were ambivalent about having children in the first place. Plus that children having places to go and people to see who aren't their primary carer too.

started responding to that, then felt it was too ludicrous.

one thing this thread has made me realise, is that male only spaces almost always mean women AND CHILDREN are excluded. but women only places usually include the children - why? (rhetorical question)

kickass - I think you've hit on something really important there!

May I say, I am appreciating this discussion so much - I'd not thought when the first thread started that it would particularly make me think about the kind of mother I wanted to be, or why motherhood is important to feminism, and now I feel I've learned a huge amount about that. Thanks all.

kickass.. that is such an important point about male only spaces.... and your earlier posts were very interesting as I had no idea how to respond to them ! (as they simulataneously appealed/sounded awful!!).

yes getting a viable model for single mothers would give many more options for all mothers.. (confession) being a full time paid working mum gives me regular nights away from my children ..and anyone else if I so wish.. and I enjoy them. (a bit like divorced dads do)

That is so true kickass. I see it a lot in the sport I am involved with, children being excluded, even though women have now finally been accepted in most areas. The fact that children are excluded, unfortunately, has the knock on effect of then excluding the women (who generally do the childcare).

Anybody been through Liverpool St/The City (heart of darkness) at 8.30am on a weekday? There are no kids, no elders. Totally male space even though there are women there, they may as well be men because I was they are forced to behave like men to be accepted in that hell-hole environment

I am there on a regular basis (sorry..).

I belong to a couple of all women communities/groups there - so doesn't feel like an all male space to me /or that I have to ignore that I am a woman -though indeed it is a very male space.

I think I get it your argument now SaF, I was being a bit thick: I'm assuming you can't mix work and childcare in any meaningful way apart from strict separation that involves parents having to make the choices I am describing.

Yes I see that it would be good. Here in Mexico it is quite common for children to be in offices/shops in the afternoons while their (mainly) mothers work. Schools shut at 1 and office/shop hours can be until 8pm. It works fine in this context, (in fact my SIL does this in her job) but I'm not sure all jobs can be made childcare compatible iyswim? (All jobs can have creches/nursery etc yes; but this is still dividing childcare from working).
Or am I still not getting it?