Separatist Feminism - Thread Two

[LRDTheFeministDragon]

A second thread to discuss separatist feminism.

If you clicked on this thread and want to know more, there's a wiki link for the basics here:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separatist_feminism

On the previous thread there is more discussion, including links to some articles about existing separatist communities, and some personal experiences from MNers who live in a separatist or partially separatist environment. If you're interested in more discussion of separatism, what it might mean for feminists, and what women's spaces can do for us, please come back and join me so this OP doesn't sit unanswered like a lemon!

Link to thread no. 1 (and kudos to the lovely VictorGollancz who started it all off) here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1259519-Separatist-Feminism

[not all of course]

sorry x post

.

Good to see this discussion continuing. Just caught up with the end of the last one, and I am still struck how a discussion about women only spaces or aspects of living apart from men can a) trigger such vitriol (ref. to last thread only). b) make people assume that the discussion is about creating a female dominated society.

I may be completely off base - and if there more women out there living permanent/or full time separatism please share your experiences - but it feels like that doesn't work for most women.....which makes me wonder why anyone would take issue with a few women living differently to the majority...who does it hurt?

Secondly, it does feel like aspects of separatism can be a useful concept, giving women only spaces - be it socially, domestically or whatever...can be of use/sustenance/provide a domestic space for those whom the traditional hetronormative (still love this expression!) doesn't work...and not as a replacement for whom the traditional set up does work

I am curious since no one is proposing enforced separatism...why would this idea make some so angry?

Yes, I think are right SAF.....but I still have 'buts' in my head, I am probably resistant to accepting it is just that!

It's not hostility against a few tiny refuges at all, I don't think anyone really cares about a few women living together. The idea that it is feminist is ridiculous, it could only be part of the movement if it had any impact at all. Which clearly it can't. Anger comes when prejudice happens and when blanket 'all men are evil' statements come along and muddy the waters.

"Free sex" as opposed to what?

Free domestic labour in exchange for 'free accommodation'?

Some of these premises are rather odd, surely this 'free' is not free at all. It's an exchange.

Not needing men is not true if you want to be a parent as we still need men for sperm.

Where has anyone said 'all men are evil ' TPP?

....but you accept that sex and accommodation is an exchange (call it free, call it a negotiation) in a 'completely traditional' set up.of :one man (he works for money), one woman ( she works domestically) type marriage?

It is true that the above approach works for many, and nobody is suggesting it should stop for those people.

What are you saying for those for whom the above does not work...they should be forced to.do it anyway?

To be a parent, as a woman, you could have a sperm donation, or you could have a very involved father who coparents but lives in a different domestic space...or a multitude of other options.

Why do you translate a discussion of women only spaces, as an 'all men are evil discussion'?

The smile should have been a 'o'....no idea how I did that!

No, I don't accept sex is part of an exchange. Who does? Unless his pleasure is exchanged for mine, it's not really part of the 'wife' deal. If both of us want ex at the same time we have it.

Noone should be forced to do anything. I think being a parent is far more complicated than having a sperm donor, a child has a right to know it's parents, a person does not (in this already overcrowded world) have a right to have a child with no intention of allowing that child to have a relationship with both parents, except in adoption or where that child/mother would be in danger.

When a boy becomes a man, when my boys become men, I want them to be fathers, good fathers. (if they want) So I'm not prepared to write off a whole gender. I'm prepared to fight for equality, choice and the patriarchy as a machine.

A poster on tpt said many things about men, that they hate her children, threaten her....christ even chase her with dogs. Idon't know anyone that has ever been chased by a dog, it wasn't men that did that, it was some men, probably low educated, rough men.

I've never given anyone sex either, it's never a gift.

Free domestic labour then, what's free about it?

Basically discussions here recently are from a premise I don;t want to associate with, it's not feminist at all. But it is separatist.

When a whole gender is wiped from parenting with broad brush strokes I, as mother of boys, take offence. It's personal.

Funny that the same 'feminists' that defend male workers in nurseries, despite the abuse stats (2% of workers are male, 60% of abuse is committed by men in child care ) sit comfortably in the 'we should prepare girls to be lone parents as DV is out there brigade and children are better off without fathers.

I am disappointed, that's why I'm angry. And a few women separating from men does nothing for feminism, I've yet to see how it does.

1.you said it was an exchange, what did you mean by that?

1. Because you have never had a dog let loose on you for complying...you deny that the world may be unsafe for other women???? ...talk about an ivory tower.

1. Before you launch into even more stereotypes about the low class and uneducated ( seriously I didn't think you could dig out yet another one!). Because of the school I went too I lived amongst a clique of wealthy, well educated types who considered themselves high class. I was witness to terrible episodes of violence by husbands against their wives(who wouldn't leave because they wanted to retain the impression of the life you describe).....so seriously let's not go down the route of male violence against women being the preserve of low class, uneducated me.

4....Psst nobody is writing off men. Many mothers on this thread have sons, and are concerned raise them to be good men, good fathers, good partners....so why don't you listen what people have said about that (see previous thread) rather than making assumptions.