Some men really hate women being single don't they?

[solidgoldbrass]

inspired by a couple of other threads including the separatism one. Have you ever noticed that if a man you don't like or know or fancy is trying to persuade you to date him or spend time with him or even just talk to him, the only really effective way to make him fuck off is to tell him that you are another man's property. Just saying No, leave me alone, no thanks, actually I am having a conversation with my female friend and am not interested in talking to you, never seems to work until you throw in My Boyfriend or My Husband.

Pardon me if I'm cynical, but clubs want women in for the purposes of being propositioned by the male clientele, imo - so they encourage women in with lower price/free entry often - but they're not going to be eager to intervene with guys making unwanted passes. I don't think that female clientele are seen as the money-spending market, but as an attraction - whether that's true economically these days, I don't know - but it still seems to be the perception.

"I don't know why men cannot accept your answer first time round- I think I know, but there is no point mentioning it- anyway, the thing to do- as they say in all self-help books- is not to expect others to change their behaviour but for a person to do all they reasonable can themselves to change things."

What a load of rubbish. The only ways a woman could change themselves so they didn't get this sort of behaviours would be:

1. never go out
2. only ever go out with a male chaperone

Which do you suggest is the correct course of action? And have you considered looking into membership of the taleban and / or moving to saudi arabia?

Why is the idea that men should respect women's personal space and boundaries so UTTERLY OUTRAGEOUS?

It's really very peculiar.

That is true, buzzsore, but, in all fairness, if a couple appear to be only talking, well it is not reasonable for them to intervene, is it?
I mean if the guy is becoming visibly aggressive towards the woman, they should intervene- as they should with any incident of aggression in the establishment- but, well, it's not really their job to play amateur psychologist and assess a 'he said, she said' situation, is it?

Back to clubs again; Orangehat will go mad...!

From my memory I think you are right Buzzsore. I certainly used to see women queue-jump at clubs whilst groups of men would be turned away. I think women should demand to be treated equally and refuse offers of discounted drinks and free entry and demand that bouncers refuse them entry on occasion - all preferential treatment is based on women's potential sexual availability....

I have "rescued" women from men I can see are pestering them wamster. It is not hard to tell if a woman is feeling out of her depth, uncomfortable, wanting to get away but not knowing how. It's usually much younger women who have not yet learnt that it is OK in these situations to be less polite than they have been taught all their lives to be.

SardineQueen, what you are saying is bollocks. So you don't think women should play in active part in protecting themselves, then? If they are serious in wanting to change things, they should do all they can reasonably do to change things? This means ringing the police every time they feel threatened and making a pain in the rear of themselves.

Seriously, people need to grow up a bit up they want change; it's no good expecting the bad guy to change- he may, he may not-but, be honest, would women have got the vote if they had not kicked up a fuss? Of course not.

If something is of advantage to one party that disadvantages another party, you don't sit around waiting for the advantaged party to have a change of heart and share, do you?

You think that 16 year olds should "protect themselves" and "grow up"?

Rather than men decades older than them have a bit of self restraint and not harass them?

You seriously think women should call the police in these situations? The police will laugh at them.

You're being silly.

If the police aren't interested in obscene phone calls or broken into cars, what makes you think they will be interested in a girl in a pub who is being made to feel very uncomfortable by a persistent man?

SardineQueen, of course, men should have self restraint and not harass them! But if nobody gives these men a kick up the proverbial and make it positively unpleasant for them they are not going to change their behaviour, are they?

Seriously, if a woman can ring the police every time she feels hassled, the police will get fed up and this may bring about change.

If you are not prepared to take matters into your own hands when you can do something to change things, don't moan, because, seriously moaning but not being prepared to take action when a course of action is available is called whingeing.

There is an interesting parallel to this thread to a lot of threads I have read about marital rape in situations where the woman was asleep or drunk and was not injured.

There are people who always turn up and put the following argument which progresses as the thread progresses:

• This is not rape. They are married and she has willingly had sex with him before. He only put it in when she was asleep. What's the big deal.
• My DH and I like to wake each other up with sexual acts so I can't understand what the problem is here

Then after about 8 pages of lengthy explanation about what rape is:

• Oh well then if the OP really thinks she's been raped she must leave him immediately and report him to the police

There is a very similar pattern to your posts on this thread wamster (although I have no idea what you would say on threads like the one above) - it's an interesting pattern to note.

-It's not a problem. I can't understand why it's a problem

• This has happened to me and it didn't bother me at all. Therefore it's not a problem

Then after 8 pages explaining why men should not harass and pester women

• Oh well in that case you must call the police

Wamster if the police will not take any action over things like cars being broken into and obscene phone calls, what on earth makes you think they will respond to a woman saying a bloke is bothering you in the pub?

Women do not call the police when they are raped. They do not call the police when they are flashed at, followed, stalked. Yet you expect them to call the police when someone pesters them in a pub? And say if they don't take this course of action which obviously they aren't going to take, and which wouldn't help them in any way, they must put up with it?

You have a very slim grasp on normal human behaviour, our society, and how people interact, don't you.

SardineQueen, I really do not know where you are coming from here.

Most people with any sense realise that if a situation is advantageous to one person and disadvantageous to another person, the advantaged person is not suddenly going to have a change of heart and think, 'this is unfair, I am going to share'.

Usually, there has to be some form of punishment for people to stop behaving in a way that disadvantages others for the benefit of themselves.

Therefore, the disadvantaged person has to take whatever action they can (emphasis on word, can) to change things for the better.
In this situation, women have to make it uncomfortable for men to chat them up and such a course of action may involve ringing the police when they feel threatened.

Why you find this concept unreasonable, I do not know.

SardineQueen, I am sorry but you are the naive one here.

A woman who is attacked by a man who does not ring the police when she senses a threat (if she could have done so, of course) will be ripped apart by the defence lawyer in a courtroom.

'So you say you felt threatened, yet you had access to your mobile in the club, why did you not ring the police? Surely had you genuinely felt threatened you would have done so?'

Wamster, my niece recently split with her fiance of three years. Since then, he's proceeded to vandalise her car, try to break into her room, try to run her off the road, and told her he wanted her dead.

When she approached the police, they told her they didn't have enough evidence to prosecute him. And "ohh, he'll get bored eventually".

She decided to approach his mother, to see if they could find a way of settling the hassle. He assaulted her after she left the mother's house. She phoned the police, and was told she didn't have enough evidence for him to be prosecuted. Yet he phoned up and claimed she'd punched him. He had no witnesses, no injuries, and I believe her when she says she didn't, but she got a caution from the police.

PLEASE explain how the police take women's complaints seriously? Because I haven't seen it.

Precisely. The police don't tend to take women's complaints seriously. So what can we actually do? That's where feminism comes in, isn't it. Get together and push for change. You may not have noticed, Wamster, but this thread is in the feminism section!

Because she felt she wouldn't be taken seriously, perhaps, Wamster?

Well, OK, Hagocrat, I can't disagree with women doing what they can to change things, the only thing I find ridiculous is the notion that men are suddenly going to change without pressure or being made to feel uncomfortable first.

When a woman makes a complaint, the police do nothing unless there's evidence, witnesses or a confession.

My niece even handed the police a printout of a message her ex sent her over Facebook, where he said he'd be happy to see her dead, and they said they had no proof he'd sent it; anyone could have logged into his account.

My mum is actually worried that one day my niece will wind up dead, and that'll be the first time the police take her seriously.

That is the point of feminism, Wamster.

As Margaret Mead said, "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has."

"The police don't tend to take women's complaints seriously" Sorry, I think think this is a gerealisation too far... Yes, I know there are examples, but that doesn't make it the default position. Nor is it correct to insinuate that a complaint is treated differently depending on the gender or the complainant.

I would suggest that lack of funding and resource has a great deal to do with not dealing with a great many complaints, made by women or not.

(I just don't think I've the energy to post re the Warmster debate anymore...)

The police response to women's complaints has improved slightly over the years but there have been many failures. Look at the low conviction rate for rape. Most victims of serious sexual assaults do not report to the police. Why is that?

'Generalisation'. See what this thread has done to my spelling?

And why should we have to pressure the men to change?

Surely they should be able to think for themselves?
"Hang on, she said no. I shouldn't carry on talking her in the hope to change her mind"
"Hang on, she said no. I shouldn't follow her home"
"Hang on, she said no. I shouldn't rape her"

Or is that too radical an idea? Should we be putting pressure on men to stop murdering their wives too? Or should we be happy for them to take responsibility for their own damned actions, and not feel like we're on our guard 24-7

Nice posts hagocrat

And wamster this

"Most people with any sense realise that if a situation is advantageous to one person and disadvantageous to another person, the advantaged person is not suddenly going to have a change of heart and think, 'this is unfair, I am going to share'. "

Seriously? That is the way a sociopath thinks. Most people have no difficulty discerning what the right thing to do is, and doing it, past the point when they are taught how to behave when they are toddlers.