I have a question about attitudes to lesbianism

[TheRealMBJ]

Prompted by skim reading the very interesting separatist thread, it just occurred to me that lesbianism is still very much demonised in society. The media and individuals who are very supportive of gay-rights seem to sneer at lesbians. I don't quite get it.

Surely if it is accepted that homosexuality is normal it should be the same for men and women?

Yes, I can see what you're saying, absolutely. There is definitely a culture of male homosexuality involved with high-risk sex. Certainly the bi men that I've been out with have had very high libidos, and one of them had a theory that the high libido contributed to the bisexuality. That they were so highly sexually charged that they couldn't be contained to one gender, if you like!

But these were men in my social group, not one-night stands or strangers. So I knew them and was happy to trust them. Much more than a lothario chatting me up in a nightclub. So there wasn't a risk to them that I would assume that they were putting me at risk for STDs, and they were still scared to tell me.

(For what it's worth, they've also been a lot more careful to use condoms each and every time than a lot of the hetero boyfriends of friends of mine, who seemed to be nagging them to go on the pill as soon as they were in an exclusive relationship.)

On the whole, I think you're right about the general attitude. I think I've met 1 man in my life that admitted to being bi-sexual. And a couple of people were saying just that, that he was really gay but wouldn't admit it properly. On the other hand, I've known a few women who've admitted to it.

In fact, my DP admits to being bi-sexual. She has had a relationship with another women before she met me. She says that other men always nagged to do a threesome, which was not on the cards. She was surprised that I didn't suggest it. Mainly because I wouldn't want the confusion or jealousy issues that would undoubtedly come with it. Also, I wouldn't want to another man in the bed with us, so I wouldn't expect her to.

She also agrees with me that it would still be cheating if she went with another woman, as (to me) seeking sexual gratification from anyone outside of our relationship is the same thing whoever it is. I think the only reason why most men wouldn't feel threatened by it is because it would only be and experiment, IYSWIM. The other woman is a one off additive, and mainly to please them.

But if their partner left them for another woman, it would be even more of an insult to their manliness than another man (because it would be like they'd been so unmanly that she'd turned from men entirely). Whereas I've seen men come out and leave their girlfriends, and they just sort of say, "well he realised what he was and that's that. It's not my fault at and it's good that he's now honest with himself."

Yes, if i cheated on dp by kissing a woman, he wouldnt mind and would be up for a threesome. But if i kissed a man, that would be a BIG DEAL.

As for women being disgusted by the idea of lesbian sex, I doubt that it's any more than most men are disgusted by the idea of sodemy.

And most of the girls I knew in college experimented at some point with another woman, even if it was just snogging another girl to see how it felt. On the other hand, I think I've only met 1 man who admitted to having kissed another man out of curiosity (and he was accused of being gay but not out of the closet).

Perhaps you are right about that SAF. I won't deny that the thought of being anally raped is utterly terrerfying. And most men just say that the wouldn't let it happen. They'd fight to the death rather than let it happen (see The Shawshank Redemption for an example of this fantasy). They just don't understand the reality of rape, that when it happens the victim is normally to shocked and frozen in fear to be able to stop it. Or that they really can't. I've seen a man after he was raped by another man. It really does do a lot of psychological damage. He said he had never been able to tell his wife because he was so ashamed of it. He kept asking himself how he could protect his wife and children when he couldn't even protect himself.

Perhaps that shows that it is a masculine power thing.

Oh, I don't deny that it's just as bad. Again, I've seen the damage done to a women who has experienced the same thing. Perhaps it is just the reality of the situtation that makes them think it is worse or something.

You do make it sound like a quite horrid world to grow up in. But again, I cannot argue against it. Except to change your last post to, "errotic to some men." I don't find vulnerability erotic. And what do you mean by, "from a young age." When does it start exactly? I thought it was as teenagers, other teenagers start doing it. As for older men at that age? That would be really disturbing.

Yes, I think it would be different without having to get used to it. But all I can do is show a bit of scornfulness at the attitude and not do it. I've always wondered if this very attitude is the centre of the whole equality debate. That things can never be equal unless people stop doing it.

But there are laws against most of this? And flashing at a child would earn someone a place on the sex offenders register. I've heard of someone flashing a teenager and getting arrested for it.

I've heard of it happening a fair bit, unfortunately. And I've really wondered why people accept things like 15:25 or 13:22 - I actually know a couple who were 14:29 when they had their first child together. And people just don't seem to think there is anything wrong with this. But I think I've mentioned this bizar thing around here before, and I was told I was in the wrong for making out there was something not right with it. I mean, at 27, a 13 yo is a child to me. And has been for a very long time. Oh sorry, this is one of the things I hate about the world. The acceptance of old men with young girls. And it seems to be made acceptable by the, it's OK, girls are more mature than boys. And I think, yes, OK on the whole. But not that much more mature.

I think yet again, it's not so much about sex as it is about housework.
Bear with me: the normative, heteromonogamous set up that so many people are so determined to promote is about women servicing men, not just sexually, but as breeding stock, domestic workers and ego-strokers.
Women who do not want a long term relationship with a man tend not to bother stroking men's egos or deferring to them in any way - there's nothing they want from men so why would they placate them? THis is what drives some men nuts about both lesbians and separatists.

i think sgb has it. and also that that over the top response to gay men by some straight men is actually plain old misogyny - if a man fucks you, you must be a woman, with all the loss of status that that implies...

Exactly, SAF. I'm glad some people agree with me.

Stripey, RE homophobia being an extension of misogyny. You may be on to something there...