I have a question about attitudes to lesbianism

[TheRealMBJ]

Prompted by skim reading the very interesting separatist thread, it just occurred to me that lesbianism is still very much demonised in society. The media and individuals who are very supportive of gay-rights seem to sneer at lesbians. I don't quite get it.

Surely if it is accepted that homosexuality is normal it should be the same for men and women?

i think it's viewed as weird for a woman to be a lesbian with no interest in men, and people prefer to view it as a "phase" (delightfully patronising).

i think there's an assumption that women will always be interested in men - so most lesbians are really bisexual (and just desperate to perform for a man). whereas for men the opposite is true - if a guy ever has a homosexual experience then he's really gay and is suppressing his true desires if he's with a woman.

funny that it was prompted by the separatist thread because i was thinking the same - i'm not a lesbian and have no interest in being apart from men but i mainly socialise with women and i am mesmerised by how threatened some people seem to be by the idea of women who don't need/want interaction with men.

Now you've said it, i have noticed that mutual friends of lesbians we know doubt that that they are true' lesbians in the way they dont doubt gay men. Although maybe its because they had a history of bad sexual experiences with men before coming out. Is there such a thing as 'reactionary' lesbianism or is it offensive and homophobic to suggest that?

Also i think lesbianism is easier to conceal than male homosexuality. All the gay men i know have certain mannerisms, the gay wen are indistinguisable from the straight women. Also the gay men seemed surer of their sexuality younger.

somebody told me that a good man would be along to 'save' me soon and that was just in response to me being long term single. people really do think that without a man in your life your life isn't quite real - how to put that, it's like your life hasn't started yet or isn't proper or you are in a waiting room for it to start or something. most bizarre.

i presume that lesbians are not taken seriously as having real lives, relationships, adulthood in the same way due to their not being a man in the picture. it says a lot really doesn't it?

of course there is a bad attitude towards lesbians - when someone doesn't like feminists for example and wants to, in their mind, insult them what do they accuse them of being? they see the word lesbian as an insult.

Yes, but people do also see the term gay as being an insult to a certain extent. But they don't view a gay couple or a gay man as somehow less 'real' than a lesbian individual or couple.

If, in certain situations, lesbianism is accepted more than male homosexuality, I don't think that necessarily reflects a positive attitude towards it.

I think that lesbianism is often seen as kind of passive, whereas male homosexuality is seen as more active, more of a stronger statement. I think it is linked to mainstream hetero cultural assumptions about the actual sexual practices of the 'groups', i.e. lesbian sex is all passive, gentle, etc. (too much like hetero ideas of foreplay, not 'real sex') while male gay sex is seen as more physically active (anal sex, involves not only one great penis but two, is presented as a potential threat to hetero men). In addition, the usual gender stereotypes come into play - women might be more experimental (i.e. slip in a lesbian relationship amongst hetero relationships) because they are more malleable, less sure of themselves, while men are much more fixed in terms of their identity and are allowed to say 'this is me'.

Seeing lesbianism as less definite, less powerful than male homosexuality is another form of patronising women, making what they do 'safe', and the discussion of lesbianism as erotic fantasies for men is the ultimate way of making it less threatening and less real as a way some women 'are'. You don't want us -we render you passive, less threatening and then claim ownership of your sexuality for our pleasure.

I don't think either lesbianism or male homosexuality are accepted as "real" relationships tbh.

In fact, anyone not in a long term heteronormative relationship (love that term), is seen as slightly "playing at" life, rather than actually living it.

I have worked with both openly gay and lesbian people. I agree that it's somehow more obvious with men. More often than not, it's easyto tell that a man is gay. On the other hand, I was working in this place for about four months before I knew that two of the women there were in an LTR together.

As a result, I have noticed that gay men seem to get more prejudice than lesbian woman do. I've seen a gay couple beaten up for being gay, and one of the other men I worked with got punched in the face for trying to shake a straight man's hand (he was told to get his "filthy" gay hands away from him and threw a punch). It's dusgusting. And yet, I have had several friends who've been gay and they have never displayed any general dislike towards all straight men in return. Likewise, they will often have a number of female friends.

The only prejudism I've seen towards lesbian women is the baffling belief that they can be "turned" if a sufficiently manly man brute makes his attempt, as if they are merely claiming they are lesbian because they have never met said sufficiently manly brute .

As for this not seeing it as real, I've never come across this. But I think I can guess were it comes from. Of the lesbian couple I worked with, one of them once was straight, and changed because of an abusive relationship. Whether this applies to others, I do not know, but she explained that she, like many others, can chose which to be with, and chose a woman because she felt safer. Perhaps this is where this attitude comes from? I don't know.

This is true. I don't know why, but men have this very insecure fear about it. I don't think it's a fear of becoming gay, as such, it's more a fear of people thinking that they are. I think.

Following this thread with interest. My sister is gay and about to register a civil partnership with her long-term partner. She is a primary school teacher and told me recently that she isn't out at work, because she feels too many people still hold the attitude that gay people of either sex are not appropriate to work with young children. I was quite amazed that she felt people had that attitude, but obviously she knows first hand. Lots of my friends have met her and not batted an eyelid, so I guess I thought times had changed.

Lost my post but I think that society has constructed itself in such a way that male bonding is at the very heart of everything - the legal process, the stock market, government, the army - and that homosexuality undoes that bonding. Therefore men have been tortured and killed for being gay.

Women, on the other hand, have always been on the outside and therefore lesbianism was never legislated against. Women never held enough power that their opting out of heterosexuality would cause problems for the state.

Leningrad & Floyjoy both mention that sexuality, like everything else, is male dominated, so gay men are at least 'normal' in catering to the 'need' men have for sex. Whereas lesbians are what exactly? Obviously they're not having real sex because they don't have penises. Since all sexuality is for the benefit of men, even lesbianism is best regarded as porn. Femme lesbians can 'pass' until they're with their butch girlfriends, butches are asexual because they don't try to fit the image of being attractive to men. One of the main problems lesbians face is invisibility. But that's even more true of bisexual women. Heterosexuality is assumed until proven otherwise, then it becomes 'promiscuous will shag anything'. Bi men are more likely to be thought ofh as 'gay really, but daren't say so'.

It may be possible, Swallow. Although I've met many a woman who can physically intimidate me, a lot of men do make jokes about a well built woman, and don't like the idea of body building women.

Althoug that is not copletely correct, I have been hit on by gay men twice that I recall. Once, I laughed off as I knew the person and he was drunk and took a turn down just fine. Another time a man grabbed me and kissed me in the toilet of a gay bar. As bizar as it sounds, it was actually done in jest. Although, oddly enough, I never mention it to anyone for fear of being made fun of about it.

Sexuality is definitely 'male', hadn't thought about it like that before but sexual desire is aggressive and violent and strong and undeniable all very un-female.

I'm not sure if that's what Alice meant. What she means, I think, is that for many generation sex has been seen as something men want, and women provide. I remember a thread some time ago that argued with that women do, in fact, enjoy sex. Some people still believed that they did not, and only provided it as a service to men.

Hence, the idea that two women would feel the need to provide this service to eachother would, to someone with this mindset, seem ludicrous in that neither one of them would enjoy recieving said service, so it would be pointless. Is that what you mean, Alice?

I wish I could deny that this is a common thought. But I just can't think of how a way. My only arguement is that I do not, so I assume a great many do not.

The thing is, Real, women do have sexuial desire. It doesn't have to be aggressive and only male.

Yy. There is definitely a belief that women 'give-in' to men when it comes to sex. That it is something of a duty or a chore. But still I think that that belief stems from the fact that desire is so, how to put it, strong that it just can't really be reconciled with being a very feminine thing.

I'm nit expressing myself very well...

Yes, thanks sAf

I was talking about what I believe are common perceptions, not what I personally think. Interesting idea about desire being seen as inherently masculine because it's powerful. Hadn't really thought about it like that.