Separatist Feminism

[VictorGollancz]

Ok, I really am really very late for work at this point but I thought it might be nice to have a space in which we can discuss separatist feminism. I've read a lot of advocates of it, and even incorporate some elements of it into my own life - I prefer not to live with men, for example - but I don't practise it totally and I can't find any examples of any separatist communes.

Does anyone know anything more about it? Does anyone live in a separatist way?

Surprisingly good Wiki link here

Sure you're allowed to have opinions. But you do appear to be missing the point that no one is actually advocating large women-only communes as The Way Forward. I wouldn't disagree with you that nearly all groups default to some sort of hierarchy (though I know that there have been experiments among feminists in the past with non-hierarchical collective living; again these have been smallscale and I don't know how successful they were). But some people, not necessarily you, seem terribly threatened by the idea of any woman not wanting to associate with men - all this business about how they should have counselling, there must be something wrong with them etc. Why not leave them alone?

"But because men are the more privileged group, the ones who as a group have all the money, all the power, who consider themselves people and women as 'sort of something else...'"

Quod erat demonstrandum

SCGB said "the women who want to live entirely man-free are in a small minority everywhere" and that's obviously true. It ought to be reassuring to men with fragile egos to see that maybe the separatism topic has some intellectual interest, but when it comes to doing the deed the number who'll actually sign on is minuscule.

Perhaps there's been some breeding of the human race over the years, so women's reaction to male behaviour hasn't generally been to get together with other women and move out. Those women would have had fewer children than the ones who stayed in the same cave as the men, so as Darwin said etc etc.

Look, I don't want to live in any kind of commune. I don't want to live in any kind of female-only space either, really. But let's not pretend that 'it'd end up just like mixed-gender spaces, some women lording it over everyone else and some women doing the shite work.' is a completely valid observation.

it might be that female separatist spaces would end up with an uneven distribution of labour but that seems less likely than the status quo, given that they would be designed to pay attention to equality issues - which our current set up is not.

Furthermore even if it were to end up with one or two harassed women always washing up the teacups at the end of the lentil weaving sessions, here's what a female-only space would NOT have (or would have almost none of)
(1) Rape
(2) Sexual Assault
(3) Street Harassment.

So frankly, all this "oh god I couldn't live with just boring women and their boring lives, I want to have fun with the men!" is missing the point. The very very few women who did try to live in separatist communities did so out of thoughts about their safety (see the link to the NYTimes article upthread) or because they wanted to minimize harassment.

It's not women who shout "awright darling, wanna come over here and suck my cock?", "Hello love, I bet you take it up the shitter" and "look at the tits on that!" at me as I push my toddler to the park. It's men.

The female only space that I am thinking of , a female prison , surely has lots of rape, sexual assault and harrassment?

Don't forget that a female only living space would also include vilence and child abuse, both physical and emotional.
Some women are every bit as vile as the worst abusive men. There is plenty of domestic violence within lesbian relationships , don't forget.
Even 10 years ago it was generally accepted that a woman would never sexually abuse a child, only now is the unpalatable truth coming to light.

That's exactly what I've been wanting to say, and haven't managed it.

Mal Seems like a bit of a weird analogy to compare a female prison to deliberate female separatism, since a prison is somewhere that people go against their will.

Let me be clearer:

Female Separatism: deliberate (political) movement where women go out of their way to build a community together, VERY RARE, completely voluntary, often lesbian-only, deliberately invested in safety and equality. The population likely to be self-selecting to care about women's issues.

Female Prison: place where women convicted of crimes are placed (not voluntary) to serve their sentences. The population likely to contain more violent, aggressive, lying or unhinged people than the general populace (by virtue of all being convicted criminals).

Different, see?

Mal - you see that's the essential weakness of this idea.

A womens' commune would be like an episode of 'Bad Girls' but a mens' commune would be like an episode of 'Cheers'. Before long, there would be women defecting and demanding that men only clubs be opened up to women because they are more fun.

ok, been pondering this.

the ideas behind communes pretty much only work in small-scale groups, as large groups always end up with some kind of hierarchy (if anyone knows of an example to contradict this, please tell me).

BUT just because male/female/integrated groups would all have a hierarchy, does NOT mean that current society is not a patriarchy. Even if current society were completely equal in how all residents are treated regarding access to education, careers, wealth etc, there would still be thousands of years of catching up to do before under privileged groups would actually become equal.

It's like starting a race with all the men just a few feet from the finish line, but the women having to run a marathon. Just because you all start at the same time doesn't give you an equal chance. The only way to resolve it is to put people into equal positions. So, insist on ALL jobs, however privileged or otherwise, having a 50/50 balance, which is completely impractical to arrange.

Also, how that hierarchy is formed is also relevant. If people become 'leaders' by proving their worth, taking on responsibility, helping others, that seems ok. if they do so through violence, corruption & manipulation, all to serve themselves, that is a serious problem. i don't have an issue with a hierarchy which is there to organise, help people (eg work places where someone needs to make decision, be key contact etc). within personal relationships i don't think there should be one, we are all entitled to equal respect, voice etc.

btw, when discussing these ideas, i think we need to make a clear difference between theoretical separatism, and real-life examples.

real-life examples also include convents, which would, one assumes, have a different type of inmate, than a female prison. there is very strong evidence that the environment of a prison itself creates violence, so not a good example for any discussion except whether prison leads to reform or re-offending.

As i write this, I am acutely aware that all of these points are just as relevant to racism, poverty etc, and that 'society' is too big to be reformed just around one issue.

Wouldn't seperatism just be a gender based variation of segregation? I personally thinnk it would lead to more issues than it would solve. We can't solve issues of equality by ostracising ourselves, surely. Isn't that more a case of running away from the problem?

[nodding]

reposting this link to a piece in the NY Times about a lesbian separatism community. The Audio-slideshow is especially worth a look.

They have their own homes. It's more like a big, very spaced out housing estate than a one-house-commune. But lots of housing estates here in the usa have rules about what you can and can't do to your house (eg no painting it a horrible colour or keeping a rusty car on your lawn) or you'll negatively affect your neighbours. These rules are mutually agreed on (when you buy/move in) and inforced by an elected council of residents. So the female separatism here seems to be a bit like that, but one of their rules are 'lesbians only' - and a BIT like a more oldschool commune or a church community in that they come together for meals and things now and then, and help each other out.

DontCallMePeanut - exactly. Women have just about got access to jobs and positions of power in society and chucking it all in to live outside society just seems to me like going backwards by at least a couple of centuries.

Yeah, never was a fan of gated communities, either. We discussed them in sociology. A bit too exclusive.

Sounds too misandrous, and too much like an attempt to ostracise the feminist cause from men and male supporters. We already hear to much from the "man hating feminist" brigade as it is... Imagine what this could/would do

Imagine the lack of se... Oh. Wait...

Have we covered what we do with DS's yet?

And if they wanted to leave before?
Border patrols?

This would make a great film.
A cross between Logan's Run and The Good Life.