Separatist Feminism

[VictorGollancz]

Ok, I really am really very late for work at this point but I thought it might be nice to have a space in which we can discuss separatist feminism. I've read a lot of advocates of it, and even incorporate some elements of it into my own life - I prefer not to live with men, for example - but I don't practise it totally and I can't find any examples of any separatist communes.

Does anyone know anything more about it? Does anyone live in a separatist way?

Surprisingly good Wiki link here

Crap, there are two things here:

1. It seems you define a parent by genetic contribution. Can you explain this? It seems an odd and contradictory position to me, but I may be misunderstanding.

2. Gender separatists don't seem (from this thread - if I'm wrong please someone explain) to object at all to children knowing their biological parents if possible. I'm not sure they'd all agree with your idea that a parent is only the person who is biologically linked to a child - but I assume there's some connection here I'm not getting?

annonforthis you're right. They did, they are, and it's terrible. So why the interest for women to copy the same behaviour which we both agree is awful?

SinicalSal and snowmama - your arguments, when you really boil them down, come to this: we've been badly treated, so we get to have one set of moral rules for ourselves, and a different set for others. "You should not be sexist, but we can do things that look and sound sexist but aren't because of history." The problem is that even a cursory look at your position inevitably reveals the hypocritical point. Not only do you undermine feminism (which by the way I do strongly support), but you justify others in taking the same views and actions to oppress women. A very clean own goal.

Mouseface perhaps there are, but right now we are discussing this thread, are we not? I trust that whereever you find sweeping negative stereotypes, you challenge them - much as I do?

Oh and it is, by the way, rank bullshit that everyone 'needs' to know their biological parents. I am 46 years old and have no idea who my biological parents are. While I have had spells of curiousity about them occasionally, it has never been a big enough deal for me to put any effort into tracing them.

Saf-[21.47]
actually-i dont know what im on about.
ive managed to confuse myself.

Evening everyone. Just rejoining this thread after a long hard day spent in physical labour (with women and men . It's gone off on a bit of a tangent hasn't it!

Anyway, I think CDV's perspective is worth engaging with because she represents what I think is the majority view in our society (certainly if you read the Daily Mail, which is one of the most popular papers in the UK). Also, she has posted some very por-feminist statements on other threads, so she's not on a windup or anything.

That said, I completely disagree. I think my children are benefitting enormously from having very little contact with their biological father, as the influence he would have would be very malignant.

One of the things we have to realise is that the reason the nuclear family is held in such esteem, why it performs well in the "outcomes for children? stakes is because it is the easiest setting in our current society, in which to meet the needs that children have for a successful outcome - mainly stability, good parenting and money. Once you recognise that these are the foundations a happy child, not the actual nuclear family setup itself, you see that all sorts of families can successfully raise children. You also realise that the reason so many unconventional families seem to 'fail' is because our society makes it much harder for - a single mother for example - to create the stability and economic security in that child's environment. There are no moral or biological arguments here, just social conventions.

Actually the no surprise comment was parrot to yours. Perhaps read your own comments, people in glass houses and all that.

That was extremely badly worded sorry.

No, that makes a lot of sense sunshine.

I do think it is very interesting re. social conventions and family that there seems to be such a strong reaction (inc. from feminist posters) against the idea of women's separatism ... is it maybe linked to the idea that women's function is more social than men's?

I've noticed in other areas of life that some people seem to think men in family situations are more in need of 'private time' than women.

Mrman-
well-i can only speak for myself -ok-i can see what youre saying but i havent been copying the same behaviour.
as ive said before-im semi seperate because its been enforced by patriarchal and safety reasons[i feel]
actually-it was me[in youre list]who said about male self importance and hatred.
i appologise for this-i actually meant male privaledge but i couldnt think of the word.had i remembered the right word-it may of come across diffrently.[that bit]

Seems pretty coherent to me sunshine.

CDV, I am sorry I see nothing in your argument research or anecdote that supports your position .... you couldn't even give an argument to support it.

Mr Man, re read the the thread, spending time away from men does not equate to treating them badly....nor has anyone suggested that male only spaces are bad. I actually think they can also be very useful...so don't see where the different moral code lies.

Anyway people, good times and all, but I must go to sleep.

"I would love to see the research regarding single parents, BTW, and outcomes for children as I know the outcomes are worse. "

Ho hum, I've said this on every single thread I've been on where this old bollocks about outcomes for the children of single parents has been parroted and I know for a fact that you've been on some of those threads Crapola, but I'll say it again for the benefit of lurkers (you're obviously not interested in hearing it):

When you take income out of the equation, the outcomes for children of single parents and the outcomes for all children, are the same. This is true across various areas: health, education, academic attainment, job status, earnings, criminal records, likelihood to marry, etc. Where you include income in the data, that is when the outcomes for the children of single parents are worse than for the average child.

This indicates that it is not being the child of a single parent per se, that is the issue, the issue is that because women are punished with poverty for daring to be single parents, their children suffer. Lone parents are more likely to be poor, than parents who live as part of a couple. Where lone parents have a good or reasonable income, their children don't suffer any more than any other child. The child of a single parent who is earning more than the national average income, will have better outcomes in the areas I mentioned above, than the child of two parents with a household income lower than the national average. (Obviously there are exceptions to this, but we're talking broadbrush averages here)

This cannot be said often enough because so many posters with an anti-lone-parent agenda, cannot resist repeating these outcome myths even when they know they are wrong.

To come back to something LRD said earlier, I think ideas about the sociability of women could indeed have something to do with separatism.

Many women have very little time to themselves, particularly mothers. They are either with their partners or their children or sometimes work. Although things are changing, there are still many more culturally enshrined opportunities for men to get out of the domestic arena and either spend time with other men (importantly WITHOUT children with them) or on their own. Women, in general, still don't have this.

My semi-separatist life does allow me to have this in a way that simply wouldn't be possible if I lived with a partner. I am very sociable and when I have company I love it. But one of the most wonderful and unexpected advantages of being a single parent is the aloneness. Once my DCs needs are dealt with and they are in bed, I only have to concentrate on myself. No one else's needs or feelings to consider, no conversation I have to engage with - even if it's to answer 'no' to 'do you want a cup of tea'. It's very liberating, even though I hear many other single women describe it as lonely. Those who say they are lonely are usually the same ones who are very keen to embark on a new relationship ASAP.

Oh yes, I'd forgotten that SaF

So my kids are OK

I am not anti lone parents, I am simply an affair, a beating, a bereavemement from being one myself. Maybe the patriarchy is to blame but that's where we are, right?

Perhaps I'm stuck in my own mindset, perhaps I am brainwashed by the patriarchy I live in, but having never bought a tabloid I hope that I am not influenced by red top prejudice. I will read the links Lenin has put in and consider the research with an open mind.

Thanks for replying to that sunshine.

I do think it is interesting that by and large, a man who lives alone isn't considered socially odd in the way that a woman is. I really love my personal space (read: am an anti-social git ) and can totally see the appeal of living or working alongside but not with others. There are still an awful lot of expectations about little girls preferring to play in groups, that sort of thing. Every time I go away from home for work stuff or to visit my parents, my mum comments on how my DH will cope alone - in fact she always thanks him for 'letting us borrow LRD' when I stay with them, as if I'm some kind of vital domestic appliance.

In contrast, I think we're more used to the image of men who go off from the domestic environment on business trips or whatever and we're expected to find it more normal. There are, of course, loads of modern-day contexts in which men are living semi-separate or separatist lives and it struck me reading back over the thread that while women in monasteries sometimes need male priests, men are in a totally gender-closed community. No outcry at this, it seems?

Good for you crap. Seriously, i think you mgiht be surprised by the results. I was when I first started reading up about the story behind the figures. The media pushes this old old story about lone parenthood being a Bad Thing so heavily, that anyone who isn't highly motivated to dig a little deeper, just automatically assumes that lone parenthood is a Bad Thing in of itself, because that's all they've ever heard. I know I did.

I also accept that individual parents are shit, and men have the monopoly on shit parenting.....but that's also the fault of the patriarchy.

People are terribly threatened by the idea of a tiny number of women with whom they aren't personally acquainted, living without men, I reckon.

I wouldn't go in for it because I like shagging men. Not a very political position, I grant you. But hey, not all aspects of our lives are political.

Having said that, I'm not sure if I will ever live with a man again. I like having them as lovers, friends and colleagues, but unless it's my grown up son in between university and jobs, I don't really know what the advantage of living with one in my own house would be. The argument is always framed in terms of "what is the advantage of not living with a man?", never in terms of "what is the advantage of having a man living in your house?" People say htings like "he'd do the DIY" but tbh he'll do it anyway if he's a good enough friend and/ or fuckbuddy and/ or you can pay someone else to do it. The other thing people say is that you can have sex whenever you want, but again, most men don't turn down the offer and if you have a lover who lives near enough, chances are you will more or less have sex as often as you would want to if you lived with him. And the other main argument, is company. But if you are happy with your own company and have all these lovely people on mumsnet to talk to (which your lover keeps you from when he comes round ) then that's not really an issue either.

So I guess I'm on the fence on this one.

the same thing for lesbian parents.

Goodnight. I always enjoy the sometimes difficult engagement. Seems like I often need to get to breaking point before I can rise with new thinking.

I know I'll regret my 'emotional' arguments....