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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Why do so many people think Ms means divorced?

87 replies

KeepingAwayFromTheJoneses · 14/07/2011 14:20

My mail was delivered to a nosey person in my street by mistake and she is now telling everyone who will listen that I am divorced. I have been Ms for over 20 years and it was in common use before that. So why do so many people think it means I am divorced? What's more, they seem to think it is a compulsory title forced upon divorced women as some sort of badge of shame . What is this about?

I lived in an academic environment before I moved here and never had this problem, but where I live now it is a common belief. They also think they are doing me a favour by calling me Mrs, to save me from the shame of being Ms.

OP posts:

motherinferior · 15/07/2011 11:25

Er...startail, it is because of us humourless feminists that women do now re-enter the workplace, get maternity leave, have part-time options and so on. And that that kind of sexism in school - which I too remember - no longer (usually) holds.

SinicalSal · 15/07/2011 11:38

Not everyone places the same weight on things as you do Startail. Some people see connections between things that you don't. Not really fair to disrespect people who at heart want the same things you do.

LadyClariceCannockMonty · 15/07/2011 11:38

startail, one of the problems feminism faces IMO is that things are often seen as 'a bit of fun' and if any woman objects to them, she is being humourless, is taking things too seriously etc. But 'little' things are on a continuum with 'big' things and all add up to a big deal; they are insidious and become normalised and lead to it being considered OK that every second advert, photoshoot and music video is populated by young, thin, surgically enhanced women dancing like lapdancers. To it being considered OK to make T-shirts with sexually-aware slogans for prepubescent girls. To it being considered OK (if not almost obligatory) for mass-market, ostensibly family-friendly films to feature young women draped across cars for men to admire. To it being considered OK for women to STILL be paid less than men for doing the same job.

startail · 15/07/2011 20:24

Ladyclarice I guess you only go and watch films with ugly male actors

SinicalSal · 15/07/2011 20:33

That's not very illuminating startail. What point are you making?

startail · 15/07/2011 23:08

We went to see HP tonight, should I have refused to let my DDs see it because Emma Watson happens to have grown up to be rather beautiful?
Of course films family friendly or not are going to have pretty girls and good looking men in them and of course sometimes they aren't going to be wearing modest clothes. Sex sells it always has and it always will.
Clearly where this crosses the line into encouraging anorexia etc it is wrong, but it it is a continuum. Trying to draw the line at a point where all men and most women are still comfortable makes feminism a laughing stock. When people are laughing they are not hearing the calls for better child care, equal pay, fair parental leave for both sexes or honour killings.
If feminists make too much noise about little thinks evil views prosper

startail · 15/07/2011 23:13

Things not think! I'd like to strangle the man ( and unfortunately it almost certainly is a man, nut that's a whole different thread) who invented the auto correct on iPods

startail · 15/07/2011 23:34

But, you see the auto correct is out to get me!

SinicalSal · 15/07/2011 23:37

You don't get to decide what too much noise and what's too little. People care about what they think is relevant, no one is the final arbiter of what's important.
I think those things do matter, I think they feed into the same thing. I think they're the root of the evil views you speak of. If you don't, fine.

If people have that superficial a view of feminism that they think it's a laughing stock, I'm not too fussed about their views, frankly.

LadyClariceCannockMonty · 16/07/2011 12:42

I don't think Emma W is a great example; I don't know the HP films but isn't her character clever as well as pretty, strong and confident and capable?

The point about 'ugly male actors' seems to me to be that we see a lot more of them on screens than 'ugly female actors', which is troubling. We need a society in which there is a variety of women in the public gaze, and films where women feature as proper characters e.g. rounded human beings, is an important part of that.

There is a continuum, yes, but there is also the issue of the sheer volume of images and productions featuring women who are there just to look 'good' in a certain, narrowly prescribed way.

And I'm with Sal in believing that 'little' things all add up to big ones.

aliceliddell · 16/07/2011 12:55

People don't like the title Ms because it is a statement of deliberate willful intent to be defined independently of any relationship with a man. Therefore it is comforting to categorise Ms as 'had a bloke but now hasn't' because it still relates to the god man.

LadyClariceCannockMonty · 16/07/2011 13:02

Nice one alice!

aliceliddell · 16/07/2011 17:30

Cheers, Clarice!

startail · 16/07/2011 23:12

OK, can I ask a simple question. Do you know anyone who uses Ms married name on a school contact list if they are still with their DCs Father? Ie is Ms ever used by boring old fashioned people like me who believe children should be born and brought up by married parents and that we should be proud to be seen as such and yes my DH does wear a ring and would I'm sure have used a male form of Mr if one existed. Yes I took his name, but mine is forever been spelt wrong
This is to say has and will Ms ever be generally accepted, useful for professional women who don't want to change their name at work (academics have the perfect way round this, of course, Dr or Prof is gender and marital status free. My supervisor just stuck to Dr firstDH even though she had long remarried because that's what she first published as)

mercibucket · 16/07/2011 23:19

ds came home from school with exactly that little gem about Ms + divorced women, which he'd 'learned' from his teacher. I was happy to 'unlearn' him
I am loving that I scare telesales people

LRDTheFeministNutcase · 16/07/2011 23:22

star - yes, though they're not my generation (I know very few married people my age who're not mrs ). I'm not sure 'boring old fashioned people' is quite the right term for the views you describe there, though!

skrumle · 17/07/2011 00:24

Do you know anyone who uses Ms married name on a school contact list if they are still with their DCs Father? Ie is Ms ever used by boring old fashioned people like me who believe children should be born and brought up by married parents and that we should be proud to be seen as such

i find that such a weird concept - that getting married is an achievement to be proud of. my H and i have been married nearly 12 years but i'm a Ms, i don't wear a wedding ring (have one but i don't wear jewellery full stop) and i am Ms OriginalName on any contact forms whether related to my kids or not. does that suggest to you that i am in some way ashamed of being married??

Pendeen · 17/07/2011 00:38

skrumle

Yes.

Please explain what the point is?

sprogger · 17/07/2011 00:45

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Himalaya · 17/07/2011 09:29

I had never heard of Ms=divorced before.

I'd also never come across anyone having a problem with it until I became a parent. In professional life it seems like the default title unless you know someone is Dr etc....and where it feels too familiar to jump straight to first names. But it seems to schools seem stuck in the 1950s.

I have never come accross a teacher who calls herself Ms, and when I've said it as my name to kids when I've been a helper on a school trip they are ????? (when DH has been a helper at DS's first school where all the teachers were female the kid called him 'Miss' ).

I had a letter from the head at DS's secondary the other day - to Mrs Himalaya. That doesn't even make sense - he knows DH and I are married (or at least he knows we live together) and that DS and DH have the same name. Who is this 'Mr Himalaya' who he thinks I'm married to?! It doesn't make any sense. I wrote back from Himalaya (Ms) .... Which I'm sure he read as 'Himalaya (cats bum mouth)'.

chibi · 17/07/2011 09:37

himalaya I am a teacher who calls herself ms, as do many of my colleagues

RitaMorgan · 17/07/2011 09:51

I've always been a Ms and have never given it much thought. I'm not married but even if I was I wouldn't changed my name. Don't like Miss or Mrs as titles.

LeninGrad · 17/07/2011 09:58

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

skrumle · 17/07/2011 10:28

pendeen

the point of getting married???

to commit to my husband on an emotional, practical and legal basis... when we got married we started living together, stopped using contraception, joined our finances and agreed that we planned to be together till one or both of us died. we also had a fabulous party for 200 people

the point of getting married was definitely nothing to do with random strangers knowing that i had achieved that status!

brimfullofasha · 17/07/2011 10:46

When I applied for a CRB check I ticked the box 'not married', I also wrote I had never changed my name and that my title was 'Ms'. The form was sent back to me saying I must have been married (and divorced) if my title was Ms and I therefore I must have changed my name. This is government agency! They got a very cross letter back.

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