why are there so many depressed women?

[planks2short1s]

In all my years,and many incarnations, on mn this is the first time I have been brave enough to post in this section so please be gentle.

I read an artice the other day about how more than half all women have been prescribed anti depressants at some point. Hands up I have been on anti depressants in the past so no judgement on that one. I alsoo had a conversation with a woman who says she is in complete denial about having to go back to work following mat leave, which I can certainly relate to. So my question is -

"Do you think growing up as a feminist, aiming at self sufficiency, a good sustainable career and equality contributes to depression amongst new mothers?"

I felt completely unprepared for the physical and mental shock at the realisation that, despite all of my earlier ideals and achievements, that I really didnt want to return to work after having dd (have to for financial reasons) as not wanting to work goes against all of my ideals.

SardineQueen - I didn't say it is all personal and private.

However, I have strong opinions about subsidised childcare, which actually encourages women to work against their will. Every time you create an economic advantage to one particular course of action, you distort people's freedom to make the choice they desire.

I'm not suggesting we all live our lives angry rather than depressed, but that was an answer to the OP's question about why so many women are depressed.

I'm not angry all the time . But sometimes I get very angry. With DP. about his share of the cleaning. For example. Because we have an expectation of shared housework and childcare, and while he's very good on the childcare he's crap on the tidying and cleaning. So I shout. Rant and rage. And he does it. And then I'm not angry any more, or depressed. (nor is he, incidentally). Then we move back to a general happy state. It's not ideal, but probably, for me as a feminist, better than getting depressed about it. And doing it all myself (which I can't, constitutionally incapable as a long term feminist).

It is very important to realise early in life that other people (parents, notably) will not always be there to fight your corner and that if you are a victim of injustice, you will have to fight your own battles to negotiate a better outcome.

Fennel - I agree that it is a huge uphill struggle for many women to get men/boys to do their share of the cleaning! My DSSs have been away for a month and it is almost miraculous to see how the dirt has receded and the volume of housework has shrivelled...

Ah we are back to the feeling of inadequacy if we are unable to do, or achieve, everything, on our own, without needing to ask for help.

I do feel that this is not a feeling that men have. They may feel inadequate if they cannot "provide" but there is no pressure to "provide" AND to be the primary child carer AND to be educated AND to fight for equality.

I think a lot of men are totally at sea in their personal relationships. A lot of men I know have great analytical skills in a business setting and then come home and are totally unable to know what's going on. It doesn't make them feel happy - they feel powerless.

I have spent a lot of time explaining my position to my DP. He's pretty adept at understanding women now and the women who work for him are usually wowed by his insights!

A male feminist who actually employs women? Any jobs going?

I think there is more pressure for men to be successful at work, and to be financially successful. It's still much more acceptable for a woman to not have a job. Men have to have a very strong sense of self-worth to not get invested in the career or job stuff. and in a time of redundancy I do feel sorry for the men getting made redundant when there probably aren't new jobs for them.

Not saying I don't feel sorry for women being made redundant too but for men brought up in a traditional way, I think it can be massively depressing. Also lots of men are stuck in jobs they hate and can't do much about it cos of the pressure to bring in the main income.

planks - his company employs 90% women (mostly of childbearing age), has a female customer base and he recently had to consciously employ a male board member because his board was too female... So it's a bit vital to understand women! And yes, there are always jobs going for French-speaking pharmacists (don't need to be qualified in France though).

Damn it! I did german at school instead of french (I have done enough chemistry and toxicology to make the pharmacist bit a bit more achievable with training though)

rodformyownback, I am sure you are not a disappointment to your mum. If she was not v. happy with who you are she would not be encouraging you to employ her own parenting strategies IYKWIM. I understand how you feel and it is incredibly difficult for us as mothers to make different choices to those that our own mothers made without sending them the message that we think their way was 'wrong'.

Our mothers did not have the 'financial freedom' in their marriages that we do and so their 'choices' were limited. Like you, I have a very supportive DH but I would like to think that, even though I have been a SAHM for 10 years, I would be able to provide for myself and my DC if required to do so. I am sure it's the same for you. But, does your mother know that? Good luck with the CBT btw .

The whole "more women on anti-depressants" thing is actually a bit of a red herring as far as I'm aware.

It doesn't take into account things like

• men are usually less likely to ask for help (especially from GP's)
• talking about emotions isn't so socially acceptable for men
• women's hormones can create mood swings which, if you are already inclined towards mental health issues, can exaggerate these.

If you look into things like self harm/suicide. More women self harm, but more men attempt suicide.

I also remember reading somewhere that more men are likely to turn to drink to self-medicate than women, and I'm pretty certain that men are more highly represented in other mental health diagnosis.

The two sexes do tend to cope with things differently. Whether it's biological or to do with society pressure is another matter.

I wouldn't say that depression is more likely due to a feminist upbringing really, I think there is much more to it.

rodforyourownback - a lot of mothers of women in the current generation of parents of young children have a highly idealised view of what combining motherhood, paid work, domestic responsibilities and a happy relationship with a DH/DP is like! I find it helpful when confronted with older women's criticism of my generation, to either let go, or to laughingly say that the next step for feminism is to invent 48 hour days for women, so that we can realistically get it all done without being permanently shattered.

I had to wander off from the thread (school run and shopping) but did some thinking while I was at it plus I've read the new posts, some of that will get mixed in so apologies if I don't credit everyone, there's a lot swishing about in my head.

I was thinking about my (probable) PND and subsequent Anxiety disorder as a control issue, because control is a thing with me, financial independance, being the boss, saying what does and does not happen to my body. I definitely felt out of control during and after my pregnancy (being poked and prodded, do this, do that, being told post-partum that I couldn't leave hospital after three days until I had a complete meltdown and they let me go). Now this is all to do with my own personal baggage which I don't think has anything to do with Feminism, even if financial independance etc. looks like feminist issues.

Laugs said

^"I have never felt forced to go out to work or stay at home, but I have felt very strongly and instinctively that I want to be at home with my children when they are little, and simultaneously felt very strongly and instinctively that I want to continue working.

I can't do both to my satisfaction, and that is what I find a struggle."^

As I was wandering around this morning this gave me a bit of a ah ha! moment, I realised, thinking back that I'd felt something similar when I went back to work, a feeling that I was doing two jobs badly instead of doing one job well, add to that it was made clear after my absence from work for Anxiety disorder (six weeks) that I could kiss my career aspirations good bye, not by the male hierarchy who were completely fine but by my female boss (because circumstances had made succsession planning a matter of urgency to be fair). Some time later they were offering redundancy and I took it and got to spend my DC's last two years pre-school at home with my daughter which was bliss.

So, I think I became depressed/anxious because of my control problems, lack of support from various places including work and finally because no one beats me up better than me. I think that I am no longer Depressed/Anxious because I am doing one job well and I know it, my DH knows it and my DC knows it. At present we are all content, not terribly well off, but content.

So, after all that, I don't think genuine feminism had much to do with my depression, I think it was a my personality + situation thing.

WyrdMother - but don't you think that there is a branch of "feminism" (quite well represented on MN) that tells women that in order to be complete and free, they have a duty to "have it all"? The anxiety of the SAHM/WOHM dilemma that many women (not I) feel must surely be exacerbated by the exhortations of these very vociferous women?

That was what I was trying to get at by saying "genuine feminism" which I tend to think of as being more pro-choice than dictatorial, but I accept that's just my view.

Yes, I agree with you there seems to be a plethora of opinions about what women should and should not be doing, not just feminists, I find the government representatives and general pundits rolled out to give their opinions on what women should be up to just as bad.

I especially remember some rotund, plum in the mouth, saville row suited git on breakfast television ponrificating on about how children could not be brought up sucessufully without mothers bringing in extra money for all their extra lessons and gizmo's and gadgets. God, I'm getting annoyed just thinking about him.

I think mothers need a lot of self-confidence in order to make a realistic assessment as to whether they and their families are, as a whole, better of if they WOH or SAH. And, frankly, the only people well placed to make that judgement are the parents (couple) in question. It requires huge amounts of thought as to how you are going to live in either set of circumstances. The trouble is that most people's self-awareness is quite low when they are young and making important decisions about career/lifestyle. It's easy to take a wrong turn.

"The trouble is that most people's self-awareness is quite low when they are young and making important decisions about career/lifestyle. It's easy to take a wrong turn."

Ain't that the truth, very interesting that you mention the "Couple" and their judgement, I see so many threads where pressure is coming from inside the couple as well because they have very different idea's about what should happen after children. Funny thing, don't know that is relevant, I feel more equal in my relationship with my DH since I became a SAH + piffling part hours term time.

Absolutely, parents often find, once a child is born, that their priorities are wildly different. Typically one parent values material acquisition more highly than time with children than the other parent, and that creates huge conflict.

And, of course, individual parent's priorities can change over time without the other parent's priorities evolving. It's a minefield! And pretty often no-one in the family can work out what's really going on!

Bloody evolution! Favouring hominids with bigger brains and a long development to maturity making it preferable (historically and now socially) to have the fathers around. Just bloomin' complicates things.

I wonder whether "maturity" is possible these days before about 40. There's so much to know! I'm sure it was a lot easier when less went on and choices were more limited.

Is it because as women we have to make life altering choices because unlike men we do not have such a concrete life path? Therefore ultimately we only have ourselves to blame?

Seem to be making the same point as Bonsoir.....sorry, I thought I was being original!!