why are there so many depressed women?

[planks2short1s]

In all my years,and many incarnations, on mn this is the first time I have been brave enough to post in this section so please be gentle.

I read an artice the other day about how more than half all women have been prescribed anti depressants at some point. Hands up I have been on anti depressants in the past so no judgement on that one. I alsoo had a conversation with a woman who says she is in complete denial about having to go back to work following mat leave, which I can certainly relate to. So my question is -

"Do you think growing up as a feminist, aiming at self sufficiency, a good sustainable career and equality contributes to depression amongst new mothers?"

I felt completely unprepared for the physical and mental shock at the realisation that, despite all of my earlier ideals and achievements, that I really didnt want to return to work after having dd (have to for financial reasons) as not wanting to work goes against all of my ideals.

[Bonsoir]

WriterOfDreams - you highlight a real problem with parenting. Many parents hold in their heads an ideal skill set for their children that has cultural worth (status), being borne of tradition, but no economic value in the modern working world. Hence DCs learning dozens of instruments, reading zillions of improving works of literature, spending hours learning Latin and Greek and playing cricket. The modern world requires economic and financial literacy, a fine understanding of the structure and politics of our massive institutions, appreciation of different cultural heritages/legacies, knowledge of science and engineering...

[sparky12345]

a interesting thread Planks2.
well-i am a parent to adult children and a younger one.
looking back and looking at now i feel that there is some big diffrences.
actually-it feels a bit like having been/being a parent in two diffrent familys in a way[theres a big age gap between the eldests and the youngest]
when the eldests were small-i feel that i did have pnd on one occassion but this wasnt reconised in them days.i also had depression at times as i couldnt escape from my marriege.
however-life did seem simplier then.
fast forward to now-yep-things are difficult but mostly im happy.
but heres the thing that depresses me-i think we live in a "big brother" society and i find this to be the hardest thing.
i hate it and i spend time wishing i could live on my own island because of this.
we are bombarded with it all the time-as a mother it feels like im not allowed to make my own dississions and we are seen as "gonks"!
there is so much pressure on us as mothers these days.
everythings a "report"[hv-schools ect ect ect]-there was a time when you was allowed just to be a mother and just send youre child to school to be taught.
not only is everything a report but we are bombarded with stuff like-"this is how many times a day that you should give little johnny hes bit of fruit"-
or-we are doing a govement this that or other and you have to comply!
fuck me-the school holidays aint even safe-unless we run ourselves ragged we have the big finger pointed at us-"what did you do in the holidays johnny-
WHAT-you actually played and got dirty-you actually relaxed and played games-and horrors of horrors-you actually did nothing sometimes-god what a bad mother you have-youre mother is supposed to go nuts in the holidays by helocopting even more"!!
no wonder women get depressed!!

[MarshaBrady]

Do men tend to be happier / more satisfied post-children?

A strong career, a wife, interaction with children. And I don't necessarily think working is the path to happiness for women.

[Bonsoir]

I don't know whether men are happier post-children - they often love their children but find them a massive constraint on movement and finances!

We live in a world that encourages us to acquire an awful lot of stuff. The acquisition is often fun but the maintenance of it is a lot less fun (and that includes children for many people).

[SardineQueen]

Do men tend to be happier/more satisfied post-children?

Depends on the man.

Some men would give their right arm to be SAHP but unfortunately this is often not a realistic possibility in many families.

Real choice in families as to how paid work and childcare are shared out would benefit everyone.

[bibbitybobbityhat]

My dh is definitely happier than me but I put most of that down to having had a happier childhood and a good relationship with his parents, and being successfully self employed in a job which he absolutely loves.

[MarshaBrady]

Dh is permanently happy too. I'd say it's his work which he loves and gets to do uninterrupted. He would be depressed as a sahp however.

Of course women can be resolutely happy and not work. But they most likely have other interests, just not pay-related ones.

[sunshineandbooks]

See I know I will be accused either of being completely naive or of being a communist (I'm not BTW), but I think the attitude that 'economic independence is the only route to free choice' is what needs to change.

Even if we could eradicate gender differences overnight and place 50% of the economic power in women's hands, this wouldn't improve the lot of most of the rest of the population. Capitalism by its very nature only has room for a small number at the top of the pyramid. Where does that leave everyone else?

I am not anti-capitalist but IMO it is the responsibility of government to balance the capitalist economy with social policy, to ensure that the vulnerable are protected and that things that are of social value but not necessarily of economic value. are respected. In some cases wealth should be redistributed, to protect important activities that cannot be economically self-sustaining. I see no reason why this cannot be extended to allowing women greater freedom to chose between WOH/SAH for a few years without it completely affecting the whole of their subsequent lives.

[Bonsoir]

Marsha - I think you are right that the ability and freedom to pursue your own interests (be they remunerated or not) is key to happiness. Living perpetually under the constraints of others is immensely demoralising.

And this is why I think that everyone needs to work for several years before settling down. When you are out there in the jungle of real life, earning a crust, you learn all sorts of skills about getting what you yourself want and need and asserting your real self, rather than learning the skills of on the one hand obeying others (school) and getting a lot of stuff on a plate (parents) that most of us grow up with these days.

[planks2short1s]

I know that before we had our child my husband felt a great pressure to be able to "provide". It was very difficult for him, and me to a certain extent, to come to terms with the fact that we needed my money to survive.

I could work part time and we could get by, but my current job wont entertain that idea. I may find a new job more enjoyable, but there are few decently paid part time jobs in the world because employers are generally resistant to part time work in professional fields, so it would have to be full time for inevitably less money.

Culturally men are not under the pressure to seek part time work so they can find a balance between wanting to bring up their own children but still contribute financially, have independance and not be totally reliant on men.

[Fennel]

Going back to the OP, depression is often seen as internalised anger. Men tend to get angry/agressive, women tend to turn it inwards, get depressed.

Similarly, men are more likely to be violent towards others, and tend to drink heavily if stressed, and more women and girls self-harm.

I see it as different ways of manifesting unhappiness. Feminism encourages women to get angry, and then try and change things. Not suppress their anger into depression.

[planks2short1s]

I know that before we had our child my husband felt a great pressure to be able to "provide". It was very difficult for him, and me to a certain extent, to come to terms with the fact that we needed my money to survive.

I could work part time and we could get by, but my current job wont entertain that idea. I may find a new job more enjoyable, but there are few decently paid part time jobs in the world because employers are generally resistant to part time work in professional fields, so it would have to be full time for inevitably less money.

Culturally men are not under the pressure to seek part time work so they can find a balance between wanting to bring up their own children but still contribute financially, have independance and not be totally reliant on men.

[Bonsoir]

Fennel - I agree. Allowing yourself to feel and acknowledge anger enables you to then analyse the (perceived) injustices that make you angry. However, rather than "change things" I think feminism is strongest when it gives women the ability to assert themselves and negotiate fairer terms in their lives. This is very often a private and personal negotiation, rather than a collective one (as "change things" implies). I think women are most powerful when they are individually aware of and honest about their individual circumstances. I personally think many (but not all) collective "changes" for women are far too blunt instruments to make women's lives intrinsically better.

[planks2short1s]

I know that before we had our child my husband felt a great pressure to be able to "provide". It was very difficult for him, and me to a certain extent, to come to terms with the fact that we needed my money to survive.

I could work part time and we could get by, but my current job wont entertain that idea. I may find a new job more enjoyable, but there are few decently paid part time jobs in the world because employers are generally resistant to part time work in professional fields, so it would have to be full time for inevitably less money.

Culturally men are not under the pressure to seek part time work so they can find a balance between wanting to bring up their own children but still contribute financially, have independance and not be totally reliant on men.

[Fennel]

I meant "change things" either in a personal or collective sense. Or, ideally, both...

[planks2short1s]

Stupid phone - I wrote a long post about anger and it reposted my old post instead grrr

[Bonsoir]

OK

[Bonsoir]

I think it can be very cathartic to state, very precisely, some of injustices that you feel angry about. Eg

"I feel angry because I was taught to be polite and rise above insults and slights. That is a veiled way of teaching girls to be doormats."

[planks2short1s]

I will try again.

Is living life angry the key to happiness? I dont think so. Though looking at feminist issues, and seeing sexism and intolerance in practice, I have become a much angrier person. This makes me incredibly sad.

What makes me even sadder is the thought that in order to lose this anger I would have to become blissfully ignorant again. Ignorance is not something you should strive for, it is not how I want to be and I certainly dont want to bring my daughter up like that. But by teaching her about the real world am I just raising another angry and sad person?

[Bonsoir]

You have to move beyond anger into action.

Take my assertion below. I was taught to be a doormat but I can unlearn that and defend myself when insulted or slighted, and feel stronger for it, and obtain a better outcome for my own life. I don't feel angry any more now that I have learned that new skill and am empowered to defend myself if need be.

[Bonsoir]

Ignorance tends to morph into people complaining that they cannot find the utopia they feel entitled to. Which doesn't make them happy! They get more and more miserable.

[SardineQueen]

I don't agree that it's all a personal and private thing.

Ideas like cheaper/subsidised childcare or making it tax free would enable more women who want to work, to work. And I imagine would have an impact on child poverty.

It's both.