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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is this a feminist issue?

115 replies

allhailtheaubergine · 08/06/2011 11:54

Due to a mix-up with parking instructions, I ended up walking about a kilometre along a mostly deserted city beach at dusk last week.

I noticed a man on the beach between me and my exit and immediately felt nervous.

This is an illogical reaction.

I have no personal experience that could cause me to be nervous of men. Quite the opposite.
The vast, massive majority of men are decent people.

There is no way he felt nervous of me. We are just two people on a beach, so why did I feel nervous of him? I would not have felt nervous of a woman. In fact I would have felt reassured not to be alone.

I am trying to decide - is it because I have been brainwashed to fear men on some level? Or is it because many men are capable of causing harm to women in a way that women are not? Is it because I am a scardeypuss who needs to get a grip?

OP posts:
garlicbutter · 09/06/2011 16:37

I'm going to have to read this thread properly later (by which time it'll probably be about 17 pages!)

You weren't being irrational or wussy, allhail, because the risk is real - how statistically real depends on your environment at the time, of course - and, should he turn out to be an aggressor, you'd likely be at a physical disadvantage. But the fact you necessarily felt more nervous than a man would is a feminist issue!

Having said that - I used to write guide books in which there was a mandatory safety section. After many arguments with my male editor over this section, we eventually realised that I was writing from a female perspective. For example: I took it for granted that one would think twice before staggering, alone and drunk, down a dark alley in a large city. This sort of thing needed explaining in far greater detail (how, why, where, when, what to do) as men do not normally feel this sense of background caution.

With that in mind, it seemed men suffered from an inflated sense of safety, which was in fact unsafe. That's just as irrational as feeling extremely nervous.

I do walk around wherever I like - not from stupidity, but out of principle - and, in consequence, was attacked a fair few times on my travels. Men in that country, however, were far more likely to be seriously injured in attacks. I suspect this has something to do with their sense of affrontery: they got angry with attackers, where women are more prone to negotiate - and are mentally better prepared for the eventuality.

I'm not saying it's in any way okay that other people, mostly men, attack strangers, or that I feel there are definite 'correct' rules. But caution is wise, and absence of caution can be more dangerous than over-caution.

NacMacFeegle · 09/06/2011 17:15

I had a bit of a moment like this last night in the pub - lone woman with about 10 men. I just thought, if anything did happen to me, I put myself in that situation IYKWIM.

I know nothing would, most of them are trusted friends. But, you know... there is always doubt. I hate it.

HaughtyChuckle · 09/06/2011 17:45

You'd be surprised Herbex how many people do that

I've grown up in an enviroment where alot of the adults work in SS BT and and seen little boys being brought up basically to feel guilty, by professionals
so its not as rare as people would like to think.

HerBeX · 09/06/2011 17:48

How do you know they feel guilty? Have you asked them?

I think that sounds very unlikely. Parents don't try and make their children feel guilty, unless they're fanatical catholics like my mother, or loons.

HaughtyChuckle · 09/06/2011 17:49

Why would it be unlikely?

HaughtyChuckle · 09/06/2011 17:49

You can the difference between insight and ranting/ guilt inducing tirade.

HerBeX · 09/06/2011 17:54

It would be unlikely because most parents don't have a vested interest in guilt-tripping their children.

HaughtyChuckle · 09/06/2011 17:58

It would be unlikely because most parents don't have a vested interest in guilt-tripping their children.

again you'd be surprised like you said your mother did it, its not that uncommon for parents to bascially mess up their kids regarding their own issues conciously or not. My mother can be like that , brought me up to have a very low opinion of men I dread to think If I had been a lad how it could have affected me.

HerBeX · 09/06/2011 18:00

But you don't have to do that HC. Just because you know some loons who did, doesn't mean you have to.

HaughtyChuckle · 09/06/2011 18:01

I didnt say I was going to

garlicbutter · 09/06/2011 18:02

Quite a few men have told me they avoid walking anywhere near a lone woman at night, in case his presence frightens her. I think that's just as sad as the fact that we feel overly cautious. Not to mention the fact that, if anything bad were to happen, that's the man you'd want walking nearby!

HerBeX · 09/06/2011 18:05

So why so concerned about the fine line then HC? Are you going to make your son aware of why he might be a source of fear to women in certain situations and that it's nothing personal and it would be kind and decent of him to allay their fears by being aware of them and acting accordingly?

SardineQueen · 09/06/2011 18:09

I would rather think that people were scared of me, than be scared of everyone.

That's a natural way to feel, I think.

HerBeX · 09/06/2011 18:31

Yes I don't think it's quite as sad to know that other people fear you and therefore you need to be careful not to scare them, as it is to feel life threatening terror every now and again.

HaughtyChuckle · 10/06/2011 05:17

Yes herbex but the fact that he would not be Invasive or approach a strange woman should be enough to ensure a decent man, he shouldnt have to be worred that that him just being there is a problem. Thats the point I'm making.

HerBeX · 10/06/2011 09:38

Well of course he shouldn't have to be worried about just being there. But neither should she. And I suggest to you, that her worry is worse than his; his worry is simply that this strange woman might think he might attack her; her worry is that he might attack her. I know which worry I'd prefer and it ain't the latter.

HerBeX · 10/06/2011 09:40

Funnily enough I have been furiously posting on the Reg Bailey Webchat thread and this precise issue has arisen, albeit in slightly different form - the demonisation of teenage boys. The two are inextricably connected IMO.

wrongdecade · 10/06/2011 10:39

but its not good though is it?

what does it breed? where women are scared to go out alone and men are scared to be where a woman is walking alone?

HerBeX · 10/06/2011 10:44

Well, it breeds mistrust between the sexes and unhappiness.

But the question isn't what does it breed, it's what causes this and how do we stop it.

And the answer isn't one that many people are receptive to, because it's a feminist one. Grin

SardineQueen · 10/06/2011 10:49

Of course it's not good.

However while women are presented as "prey" in most popular television crime dramas, in highly disturbing adverts for cabs, and other media.

And while women are talked about in "prey" terms between people ("what did she expect, look what she was wearing" type stuff).

And while men do actually do stuff to women on the streets all the time (at the minor and moderate end of the scale). And of course really bad stuff does happen as well, if you read the news websites you will read at least 1 terrible story a day.

And women know that they are unlikely to get much response from the police if anything bar a really super-serious event.

And the police even issue formal advice saying that women shouldn't be out alone after dark.

Then women aren't going to stop being scared.

SardineQueen · 10/06/2011 10:52

Men aren't scared to be where a woman is walking alone. I have never met a man who said he changed his route home because he was worried he might scare someone. I have met men who crossed the road if there was a lone woman, but none who did more than that.

Meanwhile freedom of movement for many women is highly restricted. Not by law, or a curfew, but by much more subtle and insidious means.

And even the ones who refuse to give into the fear and do go around at night by themselves, usually feel at least a little apprehensive about it.

wrongdecade · 10/06/2011 10:58

I must be alien I have never ever felt scared and my way home invgolves a lot of pitch black gennels.

HerBeX · 10/06/2011 10:58

What are gennels?

wrongdecade · 10/06/2011 10:59

alleys

norvern' slang lol

SardineQueen · 10/06/2011 11:01

Here we go.

So just because one person has never felt scared (Never??? Never ever ever ever???) that means that any women who do feel scared are being SILLY and need to stop it immediately as the poor men don't like it.

Have you ever heard of empathy?

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