The Burning Times: fascinating docu on women's power before Christianity

[sakura]

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#at=380 youtube]]

ANd why women are feared to the extent that they are accused of witchcraft and killed for it

Ooh, girls! I think Tyr likes me! Let be with this feminism lark, I shall go forth to paint my nails pink and wait in breathless anticipation for his next manly remark.

Anyway, Tyr, what exactly did I get wrong in terms of facts, dates and geography? I am a leetle surprised someone who thinks a sphere has 'ends' is correcting me on the last of these issues, but nevertheless ...

I don't think you quite understand modern marriage law if you think being married makes me 'livestock', by the way. He doesn't actually own me, you know. Which (contrary to what you seem to think), somehow doesn't blind me to the fact that other women are owned, sold, abused and killed by their husbands.

Yeah, sparky, that is internalised defeatism :( I used to be the same.

Because it is WRONG to intimidate another person with violence, it SHOULD be reported to the police.
Because, if you don't report it, the crime stats get skewed and the lawmakers won't know how much of an issue it is.
Because the law (now) protects people like your friend, even if it does so badly. Because, when you report it, you can add something to the police experience of this type of crime.
Because all the other "because"s feed into each other: victims can make a difference.
And because reporting it helps you to KNOW that it is wrong!

Garlicbutter,

Speculation and imagination are wonderful if, as you say, they are accepted as that.
I am old enough to recognise a tendency in some to speculate and sieze fragments of a wider picture in history to justify a stance; in this case, the witch trials.
It is analogous to the skewed approach to history taken by race hate groups and sectarian bigots in Ireland where I grew up.
The results are just more hatred.

SAF - don't feel like that! I don't think you're a poor communicator, but let's be fair to ourselves: a lot of the time we're discussing complex ideas, and we're doing it on the spur of the moment, over the internet and often being interrupted by flurries of other people posting and trying to do the same. I sometimes feel like a right idiot because no matter how I say it, I can't seem to get across what I mean. But it's not because we're bad at it, it's because it's difficult.

(sorry for the rant - pet hate is women saying 'oh, it must be I'm a bad communicator' when it is so patently Not Them. My student who wrote a first-class essay that stunned me responded to half the comments I made with 'oh, I put that badly'. No, you didn't!)

SAF, I don't think you're incomprehensible. I just think (although I could be wrong) that you're describing a psychological process where people fuse mental and emotional states when experiencing the world. I think you've done that in a few posts - one where you were describing how women repsond to having false ideas put on them, and one where you describe overcoming that.

I think people can recognise that, but a lot of people have a hard time expressing it, which is why stuff like that often is expressed through forms like poetry. It is central to changing ourselves as women, but many people find it hard to describe how that feels.

I don't disagree with what (I think) you're saying, Tyr.

But we need to bear in mind that these threads are discussions - means to examine issues, hear other takes on them and, hopefully, to develop.

Milly - yes, and some people also respond better to forms like poetry than to other things. If poetry is what moves you to think 'Oh, wow, this is what's happening to me' or 'Oh, I see the problem now', it's as good to you as a Reclaim the Night march might be to someone else.

Garlicbutter-
i was talking about a hypothetical friend in this instance but its not too hypothetical as ive seen this loads of times.
which brings me back to the word desensitisasion-
vicious circle eh!

I like your posts, SAF :) Your style of meta-thinking is essential to any discussions on big issues, I feel. And it needs the complements of science, history and statistics that other posters can offer.

Oh garlicbutter - the fact that you would agree with Tyr about that..well, it just makes you look as ignorant as him. Do you know anything about MRAs (he admitted he didn't)? Do some basic googling before you start agreeing that it is 'bigoted' to mock MRAs. Is is bigoted to mock the BNP?

And, as for tyr's implication that MRA donlt use 'feminist' or 'WRA' as an insult...again, basic googling helps when you come across a term with which you are unfamiliar. Otherwise, youve got no-one else to blame when you make yourself look this stupid.

Tyr, we haven't been taking about the witch trials in particular for ages on this thread or the film. We've been talking much more generally about the processes of how prejudices arise. It sounds like you might actually know something about that, but you've chosen to derail instead of sharing that knowledge.

I saw a programme years ago called something like seven (or maybe it was twelve) steps to tyranny. It went through the steps a society goes through to get to positions of extreme persecution of a group. That was the kind of thing I thought might be useful to discuss, but I have little knowledge of it myself.

IME, feminism helps to 'resensitise' us, Sparky :) Once we remember that we don't have to put up with it, we can make small steps to change things.

Cross post.

I also think SAF that you did kind of turn this thread around (I think it was you posting) by pointing out why women might take hold of various symbols from thousands or hundred years ago, because something is lacking for women in contemporary culture. It might not be possible to know much about those symbols, but that doesn't mean people can't hold on them as a valuable part of their identity.

That point comes from your style of thinking, and really needed to be said, or we'd have missed that perspective and kept on fighting over facts.

Milly, I've got tons of experience and knowledge about that!! Do you read the long abuse threads in Relationships? I think you'll find plenty of folks who understand the processes, and have read the books.

Charity, I wouldn't shout "BNP" whenever anybody said something I disagreed with. Which is the equivalent of what happens here. It's ridiculous playground name-calling.

Different if Tyr's posts were all about menz rights (whatever MRA consider them to be) but they're not. He's querying some of the views expressed.

If we're veering back towards "Don't post if you don't agree" it's time I left again.

Come to think of it, it is anyway! DIY calls again :(

Aha! Threatening to flounce! VG.

If you think Try was well-intentioned, then I'm extremely happy to agree to differ.

charitygirl - totally unfounded attack on garlicbutter there, thanks for that I for one value her input immensely and have enjoyed reading her comments on this thread.

Garlicbutter-
[feminism helps us to resensidise.............................]
yep-i tottally agree

FGS, painting my house isn't flouncing.

What nonsense - I picked her up on her agreement with Tyr that it's 'sexist' and 'bigoted' to dismiss MRAs out of hand. The most cursory reading of a MRA blog will reveal that it's not.