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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Burning Times: fascinating docu on women's power before Christianity

985 replies

sakura · 28/05/2011 01:15

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ANd why women are feared to the extent that they are accused of witchcraft and killed for it

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StewieGriffinsMom · 31/05/2011 16:37

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StewieGriffinsMom · 31/05/2011 16:41

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dittany · 31/05/2011 16:42

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Tyr · 31/05/2011 16:58

"If the witch trials were purely to do with capitalism they would have been equally targeted against men and women."

Really? Are you now advancing the propositon that men and women are equally oppressed under capitalism. Whew....

sieglinde · 31/05/2011 16:59

But in some areas men were in the majority among the accused and executed.

This doesn't mean the image of the witch was gender-free, but it does mean that men could be enmeshed in it too. See Male Witches in Early Modern Europe, by Lara Apps and Andrew Gow, and Witchcraft and Masculinities in Early Modern Europe (Palgrave Historical Studies in Witchcraft and Magic).

Also in Salem and in England, witches were not burned but hanged. See Diane Purkiss, The Witch in History: Early Modern and Twentieth-century Representations, 1996.

Malleus Maleficarum was severely criticised by many inquisitors when it was first published. See the introduction to The Hammer of Witches: A Complete Translation of the Malleus Maleficarum by Christopher S. Mackay (Paperback - 28 May 200

The Spanish Inquisition only executed TWO women for witchcraft in its entire duration. See Women in the Inquisition: Spain and the New World by Mary E. Giles (Paperback - 28 Oct 199

There was never any ancient matriarchal religion; see The Myth of the Matriarchal Prehistory: Why an Invented Past Won't Give Women a Future by Cynthia Eller, 2001.

LRDTheFeministDragon · 31/05/2011 17:00

Tyr, it's offensive to call rural India 'the ends of the earth'. You may not mean to (indeed I hope you don't), but it comes across as if you are saying that the fact these women don't live near us means it's somehow ok for them to be treated like this.

dittany · 31/05/2011 17:06

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Tyr · 31/05/2011 17:09

LRD,

I am actually surprised that you would draw that from what I said. It is not what I meant at all.
There are parts of rural India where all manner of atrocities continue, including bonded child slavery. In that sense, as well as the geographical, it is the ends of the earth.

LRDTheFeministDragon · 31/05/2011 17:13

Tyr, don't you think it is racist to say that somewhere far from you is therefore the 'ends of the earth'? What makes you the centre of attention?

I agree that all sorts of horrific things happen alongside (and perhaps interlinked with) the oppression of women: doesn't mean we should see it as a distant problem. It ought to concern us very nearly and certainly as nearly as things that happened in the European past.

LRDTheFeministDragon · 31/05/2011 17:15

Sorry, to clarify: I don't mean I think you were trying to be racist (!), I mean, that's why I objected to that phrase, because I associate it with a Eurocentric view that dismisses everywhere else as 'too far away to care about'.

Tyr · 31/05/2011 17:21

Dittany,

By contrast to you, Sieglinde appears more informed than "confused." In the probably unlikely event that you will seek out any of the sources she has cited, you could add "Eclipse of the sun" by Janet McCricklard to the list for some interesting perspective on the wider issues.
Alternatively, you could carry on posting ill informed rants and personal attacks.

Tyr · 31/05/2011 17:24

LRD,

I was not being racist at all; sorry if you felt that. I condemn ignorance, brutality and superstition from whatever quarter.

LRDTheFeministDragon · 31/05/2011 17:53

No need to apologize to me - I was just picking up on a phrase I thought was a bit of a shame. I don't think there's any difference between what Dittany's saying - that we don't have to go far to find examples of women treated appallingly - and saying it happens in India. After all, we're on the internet: for all you know, someone could be posting or reading this from not so far away from what she described happening. It really brings it home, I think.

sieglinde · 31/05/2011 17:56

BUT IN SOME AREAS MEN WERE IN THE MAJORITY.

What's confused about that? The majority = more than 50%.

So is it the case that witchhunting was only 'misogyny' in areas where the majority of the accused, or the condemned were women? Because if you are suggesting that male witchhunters moved on to men 'later' in these areas, then that too is wrong. Why don't you read Apps and Gow? Or try Early Modern European Witchcraft: Centres and Peripheries (Clarendon Paperbacks) by Bengt Ankarloo and Gustav Henningsen, 1993? I think you will find the chapters on Scandinavia especially helpful.

Tyr · 31/05/2011 18:08

LRD,

As a matter of interest, how would you refer to those parts of the world where child slavery and lynch mob justice still prevail?
No matter what gloss you put on it, Europe has progressed a lot by comparison as have other corners of the globe.

garlicbutter · 31/05/2011 18:09

Quite a bit of these discussions reflect the problem of capitalism in its different lights. Do you believe that capital is, originally, the result of theft (spoils of war, land enclosures, etc) or the result of hard work and foresightedness? I'd say "Both", as I imagine many others would, in the framework of contemporary experience. But one's perspective on this question colours one's entire view of social structure and fairness.

Federici understands capitalism as theft, iirc (am probably simplifying a lot). Furthermore, she believes that such theft has been deliberately inflicted on women. Her thesis is that property, labour and children have been systematically stolen from women, by men, to accumulate capital for the patriarchal male.

The fact that I disagree with this somewhat - I think there's a lot more accident, fudgery and unthinkingness involved - goes a long way to explain why Dittany and I disagree fundamentally on some important issues. While there is no disputing the current outcomes, at least not to a feminist, our different perspectives inform what we feel can be done to improve things (and other stuff). I perceive an 'accidental patriarchy'; others see it as a concerted male effort against women.

That explains our irreconcilable perceptions of the witch trials. To me, they were an obscene exertion of power by a threatened institution. The fact that its victims were predominantly women is an 'accident', in that the institution didn't care much about the gender of its victims. Others, like Federici, see it as specifically targeted against women.

garlicbutter · 31/05/2011 18:14

Sorry for ignoring the "ends of earth" discussion. I've been burning to try & clarify this for a few days! Dunno whether I've succeeded but, hey. I tried.

StewieGriffinsMom · 31/05/2011 18:14

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sieglinde · 31/05/2011 18:16

garlic butter, what 'threatened institution' was that? There wasn't really any single organisation responsible. And presumably you are speaking of the judges, not the accusers? They certainly had a powerful and often though not always feminised model in mind.

dittany · 31/05/2011 18:18

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dittany · 31/05/2011 18:21

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LRDTheFeministDragon · 31/05/2011 18:26

garlic - I see what you're saying, about capital having been taken from women, though not necessarily in a planned, 'we'll do this, then this, then that, and then the women will have nothing' way. But I don't personally find the idea of 'accidental patriarchy' valid. People can choose whether or not they reinforce the patriarchy, and a lot of power-structures are set up in such a way that, whatever their ostensible purpose, they also work to reinforce the patriarchy. I don't think 'accidental' is the right word. Don't know if that makes sense?

Tyr - um, India?

swallowedAfly · 31/05/2011 18:27

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swallowedAfly · 31/05/2011 18:28

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LRDTheFeministDragon · 31/05/2011 18:29

Exactly SAF!

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