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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Burning Times: fascinating docu on women's power before Christianity

985 replies

sakura · 28/05/2011 01:15

[[

#at=380 youtube]]

ANd why women are feared to the extent that they are accused of witchcraft and killed for it

OP posts:
dittany · 31/05/2011 13:11

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garlicbutter · 31/05/2011 13:13

lucysnowe, I really appreciate your 'drive-by' posting at 09:47 :) everything you said; you said it very well.

This thread typifies my reasons for trying to avoid the Feminism board these days:
~ Somebody highlighted a big statement by feminists.
~ The statement was taken at face value.
~ Then somebody else said "Hang on a second, that's incorrect!"
... Instead of going "Really? That's interesting! Enlighten us as to the proper facts, let's continue to discuss this issue in alternative contexts, then, and see how it's relevant to women nowadays" ...
~ A core of posters immediately rejected the factual criticism;
~ Called the critics anti-feminist;
~ Misinterpreted the critics' understandable outrage as personal attack;
~ Continued to hold an untenable position ...
... turning the discussion into a personal battle.

It is a depressing example of (some) feminists doing exactly what holds feminism back: turning important issues into ego battles, thus ignoring the wider discussion, and rigidly clinging to a demonstrably weak position. This makes it look as though feminism has no real case. An anti-feminist could reasonably hold this thread up as evidence that feminists tell lies and feminism is all about "women complaining pointlessly".

You're not the only board regular who does the above, dittany, but you're a strongly influential example. I must have read thousands of your posts over the years - and I have learned much useful stuff from you - but I don't think I've ever seen you reconsider your point of view. It could be beneficial to all of us if you became a little more flexible in your discussion.

dittany · 31/05/2011 13:47

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MisterDarsey · 31/05/2011 13:56

What a ridiculous thread, and no end in sight

For anyone seriously interested in understanding the witch craze I'm re-posting a link to an article about it (a book review). It's from a marxist viewpoint, which you may not agree with, but at least it's a genuine attempt to make sense why these terrible events happened, based on logic and historical evidence.

Who Were the Witches? ? Patriarchal Terror and the Creation of Capitalism

dittany · 31/05/2011 14:00

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swallowedAfly · 31/05/2011 14:01

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dittany · 31/05/2011 14:01

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swallowedAfly · 31/05/2011 14:02

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swallowedAfly · 31/05/2011 14:04

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garlicbutter · 31/05/2011 14:41

You get into an exploration of what capitalism is, and whether patriarchy is an outcome of capitalism (or vice versa?) The questions are very interesting, and fundamental to feminism. I probably won't feel able to contribute to the discussion but will be reading it with interest!

FWIW - and this is my opinion, not a continuance of any theory - I feel that oppression has always been a precondition of capital growth. Such oppression hasn't always been necessarily targeted at women, but women have been among oppressed groups and have generally ended up double-oppressed: the oppressed groups seeking someone to oppress for their own benefit. As it's often said here, women tend to end up at the bottom of any pile.

My particular interest in this process is less about how & why women have historically been targeted by 'owner' oppression - that seems obvious to me. I'm more exercised by women are still being oppressed in industrially-developed societies, and what to do about it.

Technology was supposed to relieve the need for a servant/slave/underdog class and it should, really, have done so. Nobody seems to have thought through the economics of it, though. I was told not to do my dissertation on this matter, way back when, and it looks as if "They" are still afraid to examine the question. I do feel we're living through an exciting time for women. I'll be watching the discussion with interest!

swallowedAfly · 31/05/2011 14:48

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swallowedAfly · 31/05/2011 14:51

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LRDTheFeministDragon · 31/05/2011 14:55

Just seen this. Sad

www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/31/mob-burns-monkey-as-witch

garlicbutter · 31/05/2011 15:01

Blimey! There's a loooong way to go ...

sparky246 · 31/05/2011 15:02

omgSadSadSad-i wish i hadnt looked!

LRDTheFeministDragon · 31/05/2011 15:05

Oh, I'm sorry sparky - I didn't think to put a warning on it because of the context of this thread being rather more gruesome, but perhaps I should have done.

For anyone else, the link above is not a pleasant story.

Superstition is terrifying, isn't it?

garlicbutter · 31/05/2011 15:10

Yeah, SAF, that does seem to be going on again. It strikes me as a desperate attempt to keep the old model working, rather than getting stuck into a new model more appropriate for our times.

I understand your interest in "How did we get here?" though I don't share it. It does have strong contemporary relevance, though, because those same scripts are still playing out in less-industrially-developed places. We should be able to learn from past mistakes, and convey our learning to others. This is why I'm so strongly in favour of targeting aid towards women, for example.

sparky246 · 31/05/2011 15:15

no need to appologise LRD.
what a horrible story-yes superstition is terrifying isnt it.

dittany · 31/05/2011 15:24

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swallowedAfly · 31/05/2011 15:26

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Straight2Extremes · 31/05/2011 15:36

The problem is what can realistically replace capitalism

Tyr · 31/05/2011 16:23

Dittany....

You don't have to go far to see that this is still being done to women:

Actually,you have to go the ends of the earth, in this case rural India. It also occurs in Papua New Guinea and rural Africa (although they burn a lot of male witches there too so that probably wouldn't suit your agenda)
If you got off that soapbox, you'd realise that what is at stake (no pun intended) is superstition and ignorance, more than the mere "woman hatred" you are seeking to validate.
There are plenty of areas of history where you could point to the exclusion and oppression of women but this is far from a clear example.

Tyr · 31/05/2011 16:25

p.s. You can now start a rant on the sytematic oppression of momkeys by monkey hating men. Oops... there were women involved too, were there not?

dittany · 31/05/2011 16:31

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Tyr · 31/05/2011 16:34

Dittany,

Your posts and opinions are hardly defined by their intellectual rigour, but you surpass yourself with that, whatever you are attempting to imply.