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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Emphasis on gender by parents at primary age.

47 replies

SarkyLady · 04/05/2011 12:19

Excuse me if I ramble:)

It seems to me that most parents assume that gender is a hugely important natural category for young children. So take a recent thread about birthday party invites. It is (according to the law of mn) ok to invite all the children in a class or to just invite all the girls or all the boys. But it is not ok to (for example) invite all but one boy and a couple of girls, even if these are the child's actual friends.

I don't intend this to be (another) thread about party invitations, I'm just interested to know whether you think gender is really such and important natural category to most young children that they would notice being (for example) the only boy not to do something? Are the parents imposing the importance of these categories or are they just being sensitive to their children's natural sense of identity?

OP posts:
anastaisia · 04/05/2011 12:42

Do you think that when it comes to bigger groups, there may be a natural tendency to start to categorise people/things into smaller categories within it?

Which is difficult to do if you aren't within the group (as parents aren't in the class) and perhaps becomes more based on the things that parents can easily see like gender instead of other things?

StewieGriffinsMom · 04/05/2011 12:49

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster
SarkyLady · 04/05/2011 12:49

I agree.
It is a bit like when parents look for links between gender and pregnancy symptoms. Gender is the only bit of information that they have available to them.

But do kids also do this at this age?

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Original poster
SarkyLady · 04/05/2011 12:52

Thanks sgm.
On a thread ages ago suggested that this was not a good way of organising parties but unanimously told I was being daft.

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Original poster
SarkyLady · 04/05/2011 12:53

Sorry for shockingly bad typing.

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StewieGriffinsMom · 04/05/2011 12:58

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

yousankmybattleship · 04/05/2011 13:06

OP I agree with you. I think it is terrible to encourage children to categorise their friends in this way. I don't think young children naturally do it and the longer they can make friends organically without looking for accepted groups the better as far as I'm concerned. I do think there are fundamental differences between the ways boys play and the way girls play, so my son may seek out one of his boy friends if he wants to do mindless running or banging into things, but I also think he has gained enormously from having strong friendships with girls. I do accept that there is a need to limit party invitiations but I just ask my children who they want and they never chose more than I can afford to cater for.

Original poster
SarkyLady · 04/05/2011 13:08

Couldn't agree with you more.
I was completely at a loss as to what to say to ds1 when one of his best friends told him that he couldn't come to her party because her mum had said she could only invite girls.

General response on here was either:

  1. completely reasonable way to restrict numbers. Or
  2. she didn't want him to feel bad about being the only boy.
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HandDivedScallopsrgreat · 04/05/2011 13:10

I was having a gender discussion last night (not about party invites) where one of my friends was saying how lucky I was that DS was born in September because boys born at the end of the school year struggle more than girls. This apparently was because they don't learnt communication/social skills as quickly as girls. As I am currently reading Delusions of Gender I put that down to parenting girls and boys differently however, she thought it was innate. I am not disputing the stats, just the reason behind them.

So I agree with SGM that following the social constructions of gender does harm everyone and every parent should read Delusions of Gender! [commission payment is on its way from Cordelia!]

Original poster
SarkyLady · 04/05/2011 13:12

X posts.

Yousank. I agree that there are OFTEN differences in styles of play. But it is unreasonable to automatically assumes a particular style of lay based on gender. Ds1 plays in a more 'girl-like' way and is mostly friends with girls.

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yousankmybattleship · 04/05/2011 13:14

Yes Sarky, you are right. Worded it badly! You've expressed it much better.

OmicronPersei8 · 04/05/2011 13:15

I've always thought the perfect party was the one with a mix of boys and girls, who are all your DC's friends. DD had 4 girls and 3 boys at her party - so not the whole class either (actually they go to four different schools between them). I guess I've been lucky so far not to encounter the only girls/boys parties yet.

StewieGriffinsMom · 04/05/2011 13:15

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

boysinthehood · 04/05/2011 13:31

I agree with you Sarky that the emphasis shouldn't be on gender when it comes to children. I have 3 boys (although one is a baby so doesn't have friends yet) DS1 has only one girl friend mainly because his scholl is 90% boys but he gets on really well with her, sos much so they can't bear to be seperated to go to the toilet (they both have quite severe SN). DS2 has loads of girl friends and is happier playing with them than he is boys.

I get very annoyed at people who put a lot of emphasis on the fact that they're boys. When I was pregnant with DS3 I bought DS1 a doll to demonstarte being gentle with a baby etc and my mother was really angry about me buying him a girl's toy! I really don't get it.

boysinthehood · 04/05/2011 13:32

school, apologies!

mrsravelstein · 04/05/2011 13:38

do you think it depends a bit on the age of the kids?

ds1 had a mix of boys and girls as friends for the first few years of school, but round about the age of 7 he totally lost interest in the girls and now at nearly 10 all his friends are boys. He's not particularly alpha male, so i must admit i find it a bit surprising. Wonder if it will shift again when he hits secondary school age?

ComeAlongPond · 04/05/2011 13:44

This reminds me a little of a little girl I looked after for a while when I was an au pair. She was 7, and was friends with a boy in the year above because their little brothers were best friends - the parents were family friends. The boy invited them both to his birthday party; he and five friends went on a mini-sailing day, along with the little brothers. Four friends were boys from his class, the fifth was this little girl.

Her mum made a huge deal about it, telling her over and over again that she was the only girl invited and it was because he "fancied" her and she must tell all her friends, and she was the first one in their class to have a boyfriend, and she must behave 'nicely' at the party otherwise the little boy wouldn't fancy her anymore. And then she sent her sailing in a little pink tube skirt, flip flops and newly-painted nails, while her little brother had his jeans, t-shirt, fleece, waterproof, trainers, etc.

This poor little girl did NOTHING on the boat except sit and shiver because she was freezing. She couldn't take part because she was worried the boys would see her knickers in her tiny skirt or her nails would smudge. And her mother congratulated her when she got off the boat on managing to look lovely for the whole day - "Though it's a shame your hair's a bit wild from the wind... next time, ask if you can sit in a more sheltered part, won't you?"

It was one of the saddest things I've seen.

Original poster
SarkyLady · 04/05/2011 13:45

Boysinthehood.

My Dh was not overly impressed when I bought ds1 a doll. And was unbearably smug when he only ever wanted to play with the doll's buggy.

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Original poster
SarkyLady · 04/05/2011 13:46

Mrsravel.
I agree that age is important. But I think in early primary these categories are usually more salient to the parents than the children.

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Original poster
SarkyLady · 04/05/2011 13:48

ComeAlong that is so sad.

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MillyR · 04/05/2011 13:49

Scallops, I have a Summer born DS, and I think that teachers and parents having the attitude that boys are going to act or perform in a certain way is the problem, not the actual child. Although over time if you keep reinforcing an idea, the child is likely to live up or down to expectations. It is constant little things really - DS was spiralling a comfort blanket around in his hand (age 3, near no other child) and a playgroup leader asked him if he was pretending it was a lightsaber or sword. I doubt she would have said that if he was a girl.

Summer born children are going to have less social understanding as they are 11 months younger, but the academic consequences of that are going to be an issue if the academic teaching is not made explicit, so that younger children cannot understand what they are meant to be doing. A lot of that is down to learning through play being widespread but poorly implemented and losing the approach to it used in other countries. It is like any other teaching style - it excludes many children if not done well. Ds is now nearly 13, and according to his teacher still quite socially young compared to his classmates, but it has had no impact on his academic achievement, because the teaching is good.

Sorry, gone a bit off topic.

Going back to the original topic, DD is 10 and her best friend (for years) is a boy. A poster on MN the other week said I should not allow them to play alone in her room or go out to play together without other children because the two of them together might engage in some kind of sexual behaviour. More minor examples of that are quite common. Lots of parents will make remarks about boy - girl friendships by making out they are boyfriend and girlfriend, making teasing remarks and so on.

boysinthehood · 04/05/2011 13:54

That's a shame Sarky, i'm very lucky that my DH is fab, he doesn't mind when the boys play with "girls" toys or games and his Mum brought him and his brothers up to not be at all alpha male. I love that my boys have a very role model as they see both their Mum and Dad cooking and scrubbing the bathroom (well, they actually only see DH doing that) and both of them doing the DIY and changing plugs.

My upbringing was very different, I only have sisters and there was never so much a toy car in the house. I used to love going to friends houses and playing with boys' stuff. My Mum annoys me often because we clash over the fact that I don't spend my life baking cakes and mopping floors. She was very ashamed of me for going to university and getting a good job and often tells me i'm a horrible wife for earning as much as DH even though he's looking forward to the day when I finish my studies completely and he can be a SAHD.

ComeAlongPond, that's a very sad story, poor girl must have been so jealous of the other kids enjoying themselves.

RhinestoneCowgirl · 04/05/2011 13:54

I have 2 children, a nearly 5 yr old boy and a 2.5yr old girl. They are both v active children, DD loves to play with all the trucks, trains, anything with wheels. I am depressed at how often people will comment on how she likes the 'boys' toys, one day in a shop someone saw her playing with her current favourite tipper truck and asked 'where's your dolly then'.

Children this age are too young to be bothered by what gender their friends are, there is definitely a lot of projection from parents.

I clearly remember coming home distraught from playschool because some boys had told me lego was a toy for boys and to go and play in the wendy house. That was 30 yrs ago, I had hoped we'd moved on a little... Luckily my mum was a 70s feminist and was able to put me straight on the lego question Wink

Original poster
SarkyLady · 04/05/2011 14:00

Boysinthehood
Dh didn't really object to the doll. He just had some daft idea that ds would be teased by his friends. He was 2 ffs! And for the record, he also does more that his share of cooking and cleaning. He is shit at laundry though.

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ComeAlongPond · 04/05/2011 14:02

That's the thing, boysinthehood, I don't think she even was. I asked her, didn't she mind sitting doing nothing while the others had fun, and she said, "No, because if I did they would not think I was beautiful anymore. I'd rather be beautiful." :(