Emphasis on gender by parents at primary age.

[SarkyLady]

Excuse me if I ramble:)

It seems to me that most parents assume that gender is a hugely important natural category for young children. So take a recent thread about birthday party invites. It is (according to the law of mn) ok to invite all the children in a class or to just invite all the girls or all the boys. But it is not ok to (for example) invite all but one boy and a couple of girls, even if these are the child's actual friends.

I don't intend this to be (another) thread about party invitations, I'm just interested to know whether you think gender is really such and important natural category to most young children that they would notice being (for example) the only boy not to do something? Are the parents imposing the importance of these categories or are they just being sensitive to their children's natural sense of identity?

Totally agree MillyR.

That's even sadder that she's been raised to think and feel that way ComeAlong.

Sorry, Sarky. I read your post wrong. That's half the problem, lots of people say they don't mind their DS's playing with a doll or whatever but that's always followed by "but I'm just worried that he'll get teased for it". I really wish young children could just get on and play.

It is very unnatural to mix genders at parties because girls like princess parties, or beauty days, and boys like sport like football parties.

I know :( She won't eat carbs either because they 'make people fat'. It's terrible - she's so young and she's already in that mindset.

I agree that "but I'm just worried he'll be teased" is half the problem. People should tell the kids doing the teasing that there's nothing wrong with the toys, not stop the ones playing with them.

Thank goodness it was Hully that said that!

comealongpond - that is so very, very sad about the little girl.

My children hopefully have no pre-conceptions of 'what boys do' , 'what girls do/play because we as parents do not make a distinction.

We have children of both genders, and they play with exactly the same toys, and enjoy all types of play.

My eldest has started school now, so has met quite a bit of stereotyping recently, but has been strong enough to reject others saying she cannot do x, y or z, and carried on doing her own thing.

She dances to her own tune though

Thanks Hully.
Why didn't I see that before? It is so clear now.

it is funny, isn't it?

I let my DSs choose a number of children with the following rule only: It is not allowed to leave out just 1 of the boys (or girls). They can choose just boys, or boys and girls.

DS2, who is 6, wanted all 8 boys in his class plus 5 girls.

DS1, for his 9th will prob just invite boys though.

But it is HIS choice, not mine. I like it that they are friends with girls, I think it is more "normal", but I know plenty of boys who only play with boys, which I guess is also normal. Should be up to the child though.

I don't think gender is such an important category to young children. My DD is 4.5 and the friends she talks about at nursery are equally male and female.

I don't understand the example in the OP though. "It is (according to the law of mn) ok to invite all the children in a class or to just invite all the girls or all the boys. But it is not ok to (for example) invite all but one boy and a couple of girls, even if these are the child's actual friends. "

Actually, I really don't think it is ok to invite all but one boy and a couple of girls (assuming this is a class of 30). Why would you do that to the few children who are left out?

Lauds
Sorry, my op was ambiguous. I meant "to invite all but one boy but to invite a couple of girls."

As princeh says this means leaving out half the class.
Sorry.

I disagree with prevailing opinion in thinking there is a bit of nature as well as nurture in the very common shift from being generally sociable in nursery, reception age and boys and girls in general being more intensely interested in the children in their class of their own gender at around 7.

I agree with your view that it is fine to invite all the girls bar one to a party where some boys from the class are invited too. But I do think it is a concern if you invite all the girls bar one, and no one else from the class. The fact is that girl will feel upset and ostracised, and no ammount of telling her that gender is a social construct will make her feel like she hasn't been singled out.

It is totally socially constucted that children are grouped at school with children within a 12 month year group starting in September,., but it is part of their world. If you invited the whole class bar one, the child left out would not be consolled by the fact that the rest of the school weren't invited.

When I was about six my best friend was a boy, until the day he came into school and explained he couldn't be my friend any more because I was a girl.

I was devastated. I think some babysitter had told him this but when my mum talked to his to try and sort things out her attitude was pretty much the same.

Weirdly, we went through the school system together and many years later I talked to him about it (in a joky way!) saying he had broken my heart. He barely even remembered us being friends at all. It was such a formative experience for me - the first time I was excluded by my peers on the basis of gender, I guess - and yet for him it had subsequently become the norm.

Grump that is sad :(

I have noticed that it is much easier to organise play dates for ds1 on the very rare occasions that it is a boy that he wants to play with. Mums of girls seem less keen to encourage friendships between Ds and their daughters.

I think that most parents have strong negative memories of social exclusion and this often makes us want our kids to conform and to fit into the gender segregated friendship groups that are likely to develop.

I have tried very hard not to reinforce this with my kids, but DD has a very strong sense of "being a girl," and has lots of wee rules surrounding it - she's 7. DS1 is less likely to choose something on the basis of his gender, but he has Aspergers. I know he's been teased for choosing "girl" things, but he doesn't care (witness him choosing to wear a flowery cowboy hat and feather boa out to lunch the other day. With tweed jacket and bowtie, natch. ) But he will tell me he "has" to play with only the boys at school.
DS2 is NT, 2 years old and always chooses "boy" activities, but plays with boys and girls completely without preference.

I am worried by the whole thing, really, I have been aware since day one of trying not to pander to gender stereotypes, and DD is certainly no princess, but she is also very aware of appearance, fashion, what she perceives to be the correct way for girls to behave... hoping she grows out of it!

I see, Sarky, I did misunderstand you OP and thought that all but 3 people in the class were being invited (to the hypothetical party). I would still think it was sad for the 1 boy who wasn't invited though, and I wouldn't do it myself. Does one extra child at a party make that much difference?

Whether we like it or not our entire world is made up of more or less arbitrary social constructs. It's a shame to be politicising childhood friendships. The child would only notice he was left out, and I think that's far more important than any ideology (I would definitely invite the girls though, or fewer boys).

I found DD1 became aware of gendered associations for boys and for girls after about 6 months at school. She is 6 now. Yesterday we were discussing watching the first Harry Potter and she said: "the other films are sooo scary, even ghe boys would be scared!"

The boys are already constructing themselves as brave and strong. She is already prepared to acknowledge this ( even though her ability to climb higher and faster than the others left one boy crying with frustration.)

I agree Norman (again)
A friend of Ds (6) was confidently telling him that all boys run faster than all girls.
Ds then listed all the girls in his class that can run faster than him :)

I think my point is I have no problem with gender identities when they emerge from the kids themselves. I object when parents insist on imposing these categories as important.

Haven't read whole thread but I was trying valiantly to make that very point on that thread. I'd never allow my children to exclude on the basis of gender, and my younger ds has been quite upset at being so (even from parties of girls who he is very good friends with). Sigh.

In my experience at age 7/8 gender is a very thick dividing line.
The girls just dont exist to my DS. They never play together in the playground. He's had a very feminist upbringing btw.