I'm disassociating from 'radical'

[garlicbutter]

Not really expecting anything here (though this board often surprises me!) but I woke up with a fierce urge to write this post, so may as well go with it.

Self-declared radical feminists used to scare me - and piss me off. They were the ones who sneered at my friends & me for wearing fashionable clothes and makeup. Most of them seemed a hell of a lot quicker to anger than to rational debate. I wasn't that bothered - I was doing plenty for feminist causes, makeup notwithstanding. I just didn't call myself "radical".

A few decades along, I noticed everyone was saying "I'm not a feminist but ..." all over again. There was stuff going on in the media that I considered retrograde for women, and some spokeswomen seemed to be touting pornification and surrender as feminist values. By contemporary standards, it seemed, I was radical!

So I did a bit of reading, and asked on here, and it turns out I'm a rad fem. But it rankles. This is why: Either you're a feminist or you aren't. Either you strive for real gender equality or you don't. There's no need for the 'radical', it's a tautology.

The radical thing is also beginning to strike me as a sorority (not a sisterhood). It feels like the kind of society that's good for teenagers: an us-against-the-world, nobody-truly-understands, same-thinking, catchphrase-sharing, sycophantic sect. Unless we are teenagers, we should have grown up by now and reached out to the world we live in (and wish to change.)

So I'm a feminist, no adjectives required.

This isn't meant as a challenge or anything, but I wanted to post it since so many visitors come away from this board scratching their heads about radical feminism. I'm not saying I know a whole lot about it - I've not studied Feminst Theory or sociology - but I am a long-time feminist activist. Here's my take on it.

[garlicbutter]

I have to post and run.
I wrote, as often quoted:
The radical thing is also beginning to strike me as a sorority (not a sisterhood). It feels like the kind of society that's good for teenagers: an us-against-the-world, nobody-truly-understands, same-thinking, catchphrase-sharing, sycophantic sect.

I expressed my feeling and perception. Some people here insist I'm attacking them by having feelings - and keep repeating this, without even attempting empathy or enquiring further. I'm sure I don't need to highlight what this reminds me of.

I may be dangerously over-sharing here, but this kind of thing gave me flashbacks before and I had to retreat entirely - not just from this board, but from all of Mumsnet. I am determined not to let it happen again.

[toddlerwrangler]

garlicbutter - please don't retreat. I have tried to namechange for this as I have 'left' the board, but I feel you do SO much for feminisiam, in terms of your views, your stance, and HOW you voice them, that I am posting anyway. (I must be SO stupid as I canot figure out this namechange business!)

So many times I have been tearing my hair out here, seen a post of yours, and thought 'yes, actually, I DO see the point here'.

For what it is worth, I agree with what you say. I have 'ummed' and 'arrred' about voicing my support, but thought sod it. Feminisim needs you!!!!

[garlicbutter]

Gawd you've made me go all sopyy! Thanks, toddler :)

[toddlerwrangler]

I really mean it - you have made me stop and think on a number of occassions, and because of your tone and delivery, I think about what you are saying rather then getting angry because of plain rudeness/aggression :) .

It sounds arse kissey but hopefully I have been about enough for people to know that I don't tend to 'do' arse kissey

Anyway, I will dissappear again now, but hopefully I have been of some use!

[snowmama]

I love this section of the board because it is robust, makes me think and challenges me.

Because the personal really is political - sometimes it also stings a little,and it is probably best not to take things too personally...but fundamentally (trolls excepted) we are all on the same side, and I think it is far more interesting to have range of views and opinions to hear/read....

[DontdoitKatie]

That is extraordinarily manipulative - as Prolesworth says, couching your insults in "I'm feeling" in order to claim they aren't offensive GarlicButter does nothing to make them less offensive. I'm feeling that you're being dishonest and trying to start trouble here. Does that mean I can get some empathy back for my feelings?

Actually that kind of behaviour reminds me of someone who accused me of thinking that women deserve to get raped because of the clothes they wore, then decided to claim that the direction accusation to me, wasn't actually an accusation even though it blatantly was. Guess this kind of thing comes up regularly on Mumsnet.

[DontdoitKatie]

"direct" not "direction"

[Portoeufino]

So why has this debate turned into namecalling, rather than asking GB WHY she thinks the way she does?

Dittany can be extremely rude sometimes, but seems to be allowed to get away with it. I don't think GB meant to be rude to anyone. She obviously has questions and a naive view of what feminism means. I can certainly relate to that.

Instead of a reasoned debate though - it's gone all shouty! I agree that the feminism topic IS scary for people who might be interested, but don't know very much.

[DontdoitKatie]

I just can't get over that people think it's OK to say they "feel" that radical feminism is:

"the kind of society that's good for teenagers: an us-against-the-world, nobody-truly-understands, same-thinking, catchphrase-sharing, sycophantic sect"

and that we who are radical feminists shouldn't take offense at that, and that any response in defense is shouting and name-calling.

[DontdoitKatie]

"Dittany can be extremely rude sometimes"

It's all about me then?

Certainly the names who come up criticising radical feminism are often people who like to have a right old go at me -cough- Reality -cough- Grace - cough.

[SybilBeddows]

'So why has this debate turned into namecalling,'

well, I presume that would be something to do with the OP starting out by telling radical feminists to grow up.
if she wanted a discussion on whether radicalism is too inward-looking and doesn't engage adequately with the world around it then that's what she should have said instead of just coming in with that 'teenage' jibe.

[SybilBeddows]

also, OP's second para -
'Self-declared radical feminists used to scare me - and piss me off. They were the ones who sneered at my friends & me for wearing fashionable clothes and makeup. Most of them seemed a hell of a lot quicker to anger than to rational debate.'

she seems to have met a lot of nasty radical feminists but I'm not quite sure whether she's trying to imply that is what the radicals on here are like or just mentioning, randomly, that she used to know some horrible ones.

maybe she would be kind enough to clarify?

[SybilBeddows]

actually, scratch that last post, it doesn't matter.
dissociating oneself from radicalism is fine but it would be nice to do so without being insulting.

[lemonmuffin]

Garlic butter, i think your quote about radical feminists was spot on actually, agree with every word of it.

[Beachcomber]

I'm a radical feminist and I'm lovely me.

Never sneered at anyone for wearing make-up. (Weird behaviour that I have NEVER seen on MN).

I do have strongly held political beliefs and values however. I think one place I should be able to uncompromisingly express these opinions is on a feminist board.

I don't expect everyone or even anyone to agree with those opinions but I don't expect to be attacked for having them and expressing them clearly. Feminism needs to be forthright or it will get watered down to nothingness.

[InmaculadaConcepcion]

What SGM said.
And beachcomber, SybilBeddows, LeninGregg

Expressing strongly-held views strongly is fine. Challenging strongly-held views strongly is equally fine. Lively, passionate debate is interesting and enlightening not to mention invigorating.

Name-calling, being accusatory and launching personal attacks is not fine IMO. Whoever you are.

I also believe that the best way to deal with genuine trolls is to either ignore completely or take the piss out of them. But that's just me!

[DontdoitKatie]

'I've said this before but I find it very unkind and unhelpful to make every 'Feminist' responsible for the behaviour of any person who self-identifies as feminist.'

Do you think that's what's going on here SGM? GB was actually making generalised points about radical feminists as did everybody else except Portoeufino.

Because if it's actually addressed at one person it's even meaner behaviour than just the generalised insults.

[Portoeufino]

My point is that because of your reputation Dittany, you seem to get away with being rude to people a lot. But if you consider anyone makes a personal comment about you in return, you are demanding apologies and will no longer enter in to a debate with them. We are not all as "experienced" at this as you. We don't have your knowledge.

I have learnt a lot from you already, but I think it would be a lot easier for me and others if we weren't jumped on from a great height from the get go. Why not do what you are good at and challenge the preconceptions and misunderstandings. Why go down the route of saying that GB is just rude and what she said is the equivilant of calling all radical feminists "cunts". Why not just explain why you disagree with that view?

I totally see why GB considers radical feminism as like a "club" or "clique" - if you don't know everything already, or question anything then you get laid into! Where is the bloody sisterhood?