I'm disassociating from 'radical'

[garlicbutter]

Not really expecting anything here (though this board often surprises me!) but I woke up with a fierce urge to write this post, so may as well go with it.

Self-declared radical feminists used to scare me - and piss me off. They were the ones who sneered at my friends & me for wearing fashionable clothes and makeup. Most of them seemed a hell of a lot quicker to anger than to rational debate. I wasn't that bothered - I was doing plenty for feminist causes, makeup notwithstanding. I just didn't call myself "radical".

A few decades along, I noticed everyone was saying "I'm not a feminist but ..." all over again. There was stuff going on in the media that I considered retrograde for women, and some spokeswomen seemed to be touting pornification and surrender as feminist values. By contemporary standards, it seemed, I was radical!

So I did a bit of reading, and asked on here, and it turns out I'm a rad fem. But it rankles. This is why: Either you're a feminist or you aren't. Either you strive for real gender equality or you don't. There's no need for the 'radical', it's a tautology.

The radical thing is also beginning to strike me as a sorority (not a sisterhood). It feels like the kind of society that's good for teenagers: an us-against-the-world, nobody-truly-understands, same-thinking, catchphrase-sharing, sycophantic sect. Unless we are teenagers, we should have grown up by now and reached out to the world we live in (and wish to change.)

So I'm a feminist, no adjectives required.

This isn't meant as a challenge or anything, but I wanted to post it since so many visitors come away from this board scratching their heads about radical feminism. I'm not saying I know a whole lot about it - I've not studied Feminst Theory or sociology - but I am a long-time feminist activist. Here's my take on it.

[WhiteBumOfTheMountain]

It's more than lack of understanding charity....it's that the agressive nature puts many women off...thus excluding them from something whch could help them. Your post comes off as patronising and your "gah" of irritation ilustrates why many women don't feel comfotable posting here.

[WhiteBumOfTheMountain]

celedon Right...then I'll fuck off back there....because I can probably learn more by reading alone than by coming here and getting sneered at.

[stripeywoollenhat]

it's a speculation, there's no evidence relating to it and it's a speculation which absolves people of culpability for violent crime: unsurprisingly, i have only ever heard men espousing this view (apart from camille paglia!)

most people who commit sexual assaults are not suffering from any mental illness. my own feeling is that they do it because they want to, because they can get away with it, and because society in general still believes that some women (and children!) are asking for it

[DontdoitKatie]

"I'm sitting here waiting for the torrent of patronising abuse from the 'real feminists' about how we don't really understand feminism and shouldn't worry our pretty little heads and leave it to the grown-up feminists."

You're reaching a bit if you're having to invent patronising abuse which hasn't happened Annie.

The rudest stuff on this thread has been from someone criticising radical feminists.

TBH I don't feel answerable to critics who just make stuff up. Rather than criticising why don't you investigate what radical feminism really is. How do you feel about that list I posted there of radical feminist achievements and actual radical feminists?

[stripeywoollenhat]

whitebum, don't fuck off: i hope i'm not coming across as sneering

[charitygirl]

I don't believe anyone comes to feminism (or any other intellectual or instinctual understanding) by spoon-feeding and hand-holding. If you want the basic arguments (e.g. on the feminist response to EP), there are hundreds of sites which actually call themselves things like Feminism 101. You can find out SO easily on google people's different views on Paglia, for example.

This is a discussion board - there are lots of threads in this section which are light hearted, jokey, beginner-badged etc. But does every thread need to go back to basics because someone asked? Even if we simply say 'That's been covered before', we get told we're unfriendly and not 'helping' women. Bullshit. You'll get all the info you need (including opposing views forcibly argued - what could be more useful for hearing both sides of the story) if you stick around and listen.

The advice I gave you is the same advice I give to myself when I'm not sure 'what's going on' online. So I don't think it's patronising.

[vesuvia]

garlicbutter wrote - "The radical thing is also beginning to strike me as a sorority (not a sisterhood). It feels like the kind of society that's good for teenagers: an us-against-the-world, nobody-truly-understands, same-thinking, catchphrase-sharing, sycophantic sect. Unless we are teenagers, we should have grown up by now and reached out to the world we live in (and wish to change.)"

How polite, tolerant and open-minded is that comment?

Yet it is the radical feminists who are labelled dismissive, intolerant, patronising, rude, aggressive, stubborn, close-minded, off-putting etc.

[Straight2Extremes]

True SGM radical for virtually everything else is associated with violent, extremist, terrorism, basically loads of negative stuff.

When someone says 'radical' feminism that's the first thought that pops into their head evolution of words swings once again.

[KatieMiddleton]

At the risk of poking my head above the parapet I have been told on this board that my views are "stupid" and I don't know what I'm talking about when referring to direct experience I have had. I have also had my posts taken apart and comments made and attributed to me about things I haven't said which then moves the debate away from the point and starts to border on the personal. I am quite happy for people to tell me they disagree with me and explain why but the "me right, you wrong/stupid/ignorant" is unhelpful. On two occasions other posters have been aggressive and disrespectful which is unnecessary.

However, that is not my experience the majority of the time but less thick skinned posters would probably have been put off. Up to you what you do with this information but it might be useful to know? Not saying I'm right but this is how I felt.

[AnnieLobePassoverSeder]

Dittany, I didn't for one minute say that radical feminism is a bad thing. That list you posted was impressive, and it's not radical feminism per se that I'm challenging. I'm on your side, really, though you seem determined to take offence. I can't say I know what radical feminism is. I don't really care. I'm not into labels and sub-divisions. I did say that I think perhaps people are confusing the words 'radical' and 'extreme' so that might be why radical feminism comes under criticism.

All some of us are saying that we feel patronised, we feel intimidated. It's not that we expect everyone to cover the basics on every thread. But it would be nice if posters didn't go 'Gah!' and instead were cheerful, welcoming and posted links to where we can go to read the basics without irritating everyone.

As someone new to feminism, I'm explaining why I found it hard to start posting here, how the board came across to me, and how it might some across to others. Denying that it is so or explaining it away doesn't change the reality that some women are frightened of feminists, which I find incredibly sad.

[DontdoitKatie]

Annie, I think your expectations of feminists/radical feminists are a bit odd.

Why would you expect someone to be cheerful and welcoming after this:

"The radical thing is also beginning to strike me as a sorority (not a sisterhood). It feels like the kind of society that's good for teenagers: an us-against-the-world, nobody-truly-understands, same-thinking, catchphrase-sharing, sycophantic sect. Unless we are teenagers, we should have grown up by now and reached out to the world we live in (and wish to change.)"

Also, this "determined to take offense" thing. I'd have said the reality was that you are determined to refuse to acknowledge the offense being given.

We've had this "women are frightened of feminists" before, which is one of the reasons I started the "Do you appreciate the feminism section" thread a while back. Lots of people said they did. So what can people do, you can't please all the people all of the time. I think the best thing is for people to continue to speak their truths and accept that not everybody will agree with them.

[DontdoitKatie]

Also I'm willing to stick by the term radical feminism, because it does represent a form of feminist thought that is deeply conistent, logical and connected to women's realities. It has a long and honorable history (see my earlier post) which I think is important for feminists to respect.

By espousing radical feminist ideas, you are completely putting yourself outside the mainstream, so being called radical feminism is the least of its worries.

I'm also not seeing any complaints about "sex positive" feminsim or socialist feminism or whatever. Only the radicals seem to be being called the splitters.

[AnnieLobePassoverSeder]

Dittany - as I see it, garlicbutter didn't march in saying, "Right, all you radical feminists are evil bitches, burn in hell". That, I'd agree, would be a post she should apologise for. Instead, I saw it as a simple expression of her opinion and experiences.

Perhaps we read her post differently.

[DontdoitKatie]

If I'm being told my politics mean I'm part of a sycophantic sect I think I'm entitled to take offense.

There are varying levels of offense, it doesn't divide neatly into "Right, all you radical feminists are evil bitches, burn in hell" being an offense and everything else isn't.

[AnnieLobePassoverSeder]

"and nothing ever happens, nothing happens at all, the needle returns to the start of the song and we all sing along like before"