I'm disassociating from 'radical'

[garlicbutter]

Not really expecting anything here (though this board often surprises me!) but I woke up with a fierce urge to write this post, so may as well go with it.

Self-declared radical feminists used to scare me - and piss me off. They were the ones who sneered at my friends & me for wearing fashionable clothes and makeup. Most of them seemed a hell of a lot quicker to anger than to rational debate. I wasn't that bothered - I was doing plenty for feminist causes, makeup notwithstanding. I just didn't call myself "radical".

A few decades along, I noticed everyone was saying "I'm not a feminist but ..." all over again. There was stuff going on in the media that I considered retrograde for women, and some spokeswomen seemed to be touting pornification and surrender as feminist values. By contemporary standards, it seemed, I was radical!

So I did a bit of reading, and asked on here, and it turns out I'm a rad fem. But it rankles. This is why: Either you're a feminist or you aren't. Either you strive for real gender equality or you don't. There's no need for the 'radical', it's a tautology.

The radical thing is also beginning to strike me as a sorority (not a sisterhood). It feels like the kind of society that's good for teenagers: an us-against-the-world, nobody-truly-understands, same-thinking, catchphrase-sharing, sycophantic sect. Unless we are teenagers, we should have grown up by now and reached out to the world we live in (and wish to change.)

So I'm a feminist, no adjectives required.

This isn't meant as a challenge or anything, but I wanted to post it since so many visitors come away from this board scratching their heads about radical feminism. I'm not saying I know a whole lot about it - I've not studied Feminst Theory or sociology - but I am a long-time feminist activist. Here's my take on it.

[WhiteBumOfTheMountain]

I like Camille Paglia....I really do..and then I heard someone on here call her an anti-feminist...and I thought why? Then it turns out she's not....not really...she's just a certain TYPE of feminst....it's off putting and confusing.

[WhiteBumOfTheMountain]

I wish that too Reality it just doesn't feel like a "safe" place to ask honest questions.

[DontdoitKatie]

I think an apology is in order because this is simply being rude about radical feminists, Annie:

"The radical thing is also beginning to strike me as a sorority (not a sisterhood). It feels like the kind of society that's good for teenagers: an us-against-the-world, nobody-truly-understands, same-thinking, catchphrase-sharing, sycophantic sect."

Not just a difference in opinion.

On the other hand, if people do feel that it is fair enough for that to stand, I'm quite happy to share my views on how the group who don't like radical feminism and who feel this great urge to criticise it, seem to me.

[AnnieLobePassoverSeder]

WhiteBum and Reality have hit the nail on the head.

I'm sitting here waiting for the torrent of patronising abuse from the 'real feminists' about how we don't really understand feminism and shouldn't worry our pretty little heads and leave it to the grown-up feminists.

Now, who does that remind me of...? Oh yes, the very patriarchal attitudes we're supposed to be changing.

I sincerely hope I'm proved wrong.

[GapsAGoodUn]

Me three.

[KatieMiddleton]

I am mainly a liberal feminist but some of my opinions would be considered radical I suppose. I'm not sure why liberal is a dirty word on here sometimes?

I do wish that the sniping that occasionally arises on this board didn't. We ultimately all have the same objective ie equality but sometimes this gets pushed to one side while we bun fight debate the various flavours of feminism.

I think we'd all learn more if there was less emphasis on who is right but ultimately I keep coming back because I am interested in others opinions even if I don't always like the way those opinions are expressed. A few manners wouldn't go amiss sometimes...

[AnnieLobePassoverSeder]

Katie, I have already said I agree with garlicbutter, perhaps others do too so her view is not unique. Instead of seeing it as an attack on your 'brand' of feminism and demanding an apology with the threat of attacking in retaliation, wouldn't it make more sense to take it as a true reflection on how radical feminism is perceived? Then to look at why this is so and try to change the perceptions in a positive way.

[GapsAGoodUn]

whoops, x post. I was agreeing with WhiteBum and Reality.

[KatieMiddleton]

And me.

[AnnieLobePassoverSeder]

That was to Dittany Katie, btw, not the new Katie who has popped up....

Aaargh, too many Katies!

[KatieMiddleton]

I was just thinking that!

I wonder if it helps that I am dissimilar in many ways to the other Katie?

[stripeywoollenhat]

camille paglia is not a feminist: nobody who believes the claptrap of evolutionary psychologists in relation to rape could be a feminist.

however, the general point, that the unhelpful splintering of feminism into coteries is completely self-defeating, and does play into the hands of the patriarchy, ought to be made frequently. we are not each other's problem.

[WhiteBumOfTheMountain]

stripey I have no idea what evolutionary psychologists THINK about rape...and this is a lot of what I find on here, any thoughts or ideas which I have not written a dissertation on...well there's no point in my arguing about is there?

Beause someone will stomp me down with a reference which I cannot undertand. There's too much academic reference on here for it to be a friendly pcce for newbies to feminsim.

[stripeywoollenhat]

ok, sorry, whitebum - evolutionary psychologists basically believe that rape is an evolutionary strategy and that some men are programmed to commit it. the implications of this are that they can't help it, the poor lambs, and that women are partially responsible for rape if they carelessly put themselves in the way of some poor unfortunate rapist.

[WhiteBumOfTheMountain]

Well do they say it is necessary or that it happens because there are poor broke men?

I find it hard to believe that anyone would say rape is necassary.

[WhiteBumOfTheMountain]

Anyone who isn't a rapist that is.

[WhiteBumOfTheMountain]

Oh x posts stripey. Is it not possible that is COULD be an evolutionary strategy? And that this will change slowly as the sex balance is adressed?

I mean...some men are mentally disturbed....and murder people or burn houses down....or fuck animals....some men rape women....some women murder, rape and abuse....why do they alldo these things? Mental illness? Abuse they have suffered themselves? Or bcause nature has taken a hand....it doesn't excuse them. It's an idea.

[charitygirl]

Gah! For heaven's sake! I visit (but don't post) far more 'extremist' feminist sites than this message board. I find many of the views extremely challenging even though I think I tend more to the 'radical' end of the feminist spectrum. But I dont feel the need to accuse them of 'rudeness' or of not catering to/appeasing/spoon-feeding my less radical (and lets be honest, more invested in patriarchy) self. They are on my side. And I am on theirs - because they are not the enemy. They are not the reason that rape is endemic, or that everything about women's lives is trivialised. I would rather stand with them anyday than with those saying they are 'too angry, too strident, too combative, too challenging'.

If you don't understand, then look, listen and LEARN.

[Straight2Extremes]

Science does not give excuses it tries to give explanations theres a difference.